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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4196161 times)

dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35250 on: March 06, 2020, 07:52:22 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:11:57 pm by dragdeler »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35251 on: March 06, 2020, 07:56:57 am »

Also the "millionaires are bad they got there on the back of the workers" thing is really out-dated. $1 million is less than a small 3-bedroom house in many large cities. It's a normal level of savings to have after working hard and saving money at a median-wage job here. Being a millionaire these days just means you worked an office job for sufficient years and were smart with your money.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 07:58:38 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35252 on: March 06, 2020, 07:57:44 am »

How high the top can climb is not a good indicator IMO-- I would look at the median availability of all aspects of social achievement, rather than just how high the wealthy have managed to perch themselves.

I don't know, it's not cut and dried. Sweden has a high general standard of living, and lower overall inequality (by miles), but also a higher proportion of people who've "made it". So just saying "a lot of people got rich so it must be bad" isn't necessarily a straightforward conclusion to draw. What that suggests is that in Sweden there's much higher social mobility, so talented people do in fact get rich more often. If you have a situation where you can say "well there's only one billionaire in my country, so accumulation of wealth is less of a problem" then clearly that is a problem. That means you have very high inequality and low social mobility.

Saying you don't want any rich people, because that's bad because someone else is poor, is basically saying you want a system that actively works to keep everyone poor and actively steps in to hamper anyone with initiative. You could keep everyone perfectly even, getting a GINI even lower than the mid 20's that the Scandinavian nations have, but that would come at great expense. Everyone would be equal. Equally eating dirt, basically.

I don't think you understood--  If the metric is "Number of rich people per capita", without any of the other metrics that further elucidate that, then a country populated (nearly) exclusively by landed gentry with inherited multinational fortunes will score very highly, even though everyone else in that country literally does not own property, and are essentially servant chattel.  But BOY-- would it have a high per capita score for wealthy people!

That is why I suggested instead that the overall degree of median attainment and accessibility is the better metric.  More boats being raised, is better than some boats floating in the stratosphere while everyone else lives in a desert.

You kinda went a little too far overboard, thinking I wanted straight up communist redistribution, rather than the intended "rational prevention of wholesale disenfranchisement" I was going for.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 07:59:16 am by wierd »
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35253 on: March 06, 2020, 08:13:01 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:12:01 pm by dragdeler »
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35254 on: March 06, 2020, 08:32:57 am »

Well, regardless of whether you consider Bernie leftwing or rightwing, I'm glad the commie got trashed lol. Hopefully this time he concedes a little sooner.

4 more years of Trump. Congratulations.


Her policies were more or less centrist like Biden.

"Centrist" is a weird term for it. She is willing to claim centrism, and is usually good about saying things that people like, but her actions (and occasionally words) make it increasingly obvious she isn't. Her record of voting against poor, trans, or otherwise at-risk people, especially non-whites is a thing she tries to overcome, and we tried giving her a chance. Walking back her support of healthcare sucked. Walking back her promise not to take bribes to inform her opinions once she was elected is pretty much a statement that she intends to sell out her supporters as soon as she can.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 08:45:49 am by Iduno »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35255 on: March 06, 2020, 08:59:57 am »

:) Somehow, on the scale of B12, I don't doubt that could we all reach into the deep pockets of our thought without tainting the message with perspective, labels, flawed vocabulary or some other egotistic BS, easily 75% of issues could be resolved in total consent. Representative democracy is a pitfall as it leads to discuss about people, not policy nor politics in the strong sense (weak sense hear partisan shenanigans). It's high time for proposals to be made by scientific entities, and voted by anybody who cares to connect to the onlineportal with their true ID. Don't worry we can keep all those functionnaries in bread and butter because somebody has to do the explaining and the simplyfying and the dumbing down until it's spun into unrecognisability, and don't worry human endaveours will still be fundamentally doomed to failure as we collectively fail to sharpen our linguistic tools to an adequate degree.

Direct democracy has it's own issues. Often it leads to a "Tyranny of the majority" where the minority on issues simply gets completely trampled over rather than negotiated with. While a representative democracy isn't perfect and can still be subject to such problems, it's typically much harder for it to happen. That is, unless we let it get to the situation it's in now in the US where a 1 vote lead in a house of government is taken as just cause to implement any number of extreme policies over the cries of the other 49%.

And, I hate to say it, but honestly, watching how referendums tend to turn out, people are, as a whole, far too uninformed to make decisions for themselves. Direct democracy only works properly when the group governed is small enough that everyone can be actively involved in the discussion, or when you don't have universal citizenship and the pool of citizens voting is much smaller, and each one typically has more at stake in the political process and thus stays more informed.

Hell, sometimes when I hear people beg other people they trust "Please tell me who to vote for". I start thinking maybe we should rethink voting in general. Far too many people simply vote for whoever their spouse, parent, boss, head of their church, or face they saw on tv tells them to vote for without putting a single extra thought into it. Not that I have a better idea to replace it with, but it's depressing how little people seem to value their vote that they either can't be bothered to inform themselves, or often simply can't be bothered for vote at all.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35256 on: March 06, 2020, 09:15:58 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:12:09 pm by dragdeler »
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35257 on: March 06, 2020, 10:14:53 am »

And, I hate to say it, but honestly, watching how referendums tend to turn out, people are, as a whole, far too uninformed to make decisions for themselves. Direct democracy only works properly when the group governed is small enough that everyone can be actively involved in the discussion, or when you don't have universal citizenship and the pool of citizens voting is much smaller, and each one typically has more at stake in the political process and thus stays more informed.

Direct democracy starts showing strains when the group being governed gets much above 100 people. Representative can handle a few more people, but you really don't want to abstract things too far (it wouldn't be reasonable to use for even 1,000 people, but we do) if you want people making anything approaching an informed decision. Past that, you just have feudalism with better PR.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35258 on: March 06, 2020, 10:17:17 am »

As for the internet voting things... I'll just repost this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Dutchling

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35259 on: March 06, 2020, 10:52:05 am »

Spoiler: blessed be the model (click to show/hide)

edit:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 11:01:16 am by Dutchling »
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35260 on: March 06, 2020, 11:24:46 am »

The BidenBros are real, and we got proof.
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Dutchling

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35261 on: March 06, 2020, 11:57:09 am »

UPDATE: BERNIE JUST SURGED TO 3% IN THE MODEL

HERE IS HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN
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Andux

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35262 on: March 06, 2020, 12:58:20 pm »

The BidenBros are real, and we got proof.

Reminds me of the Trump supporters on Reddit. When things look dicey for Trump, they tend to hole up in their little anti-reality bubbles and leave the rest of us alone (mostly); but the moment things look like they're going Trump's way, they will immediately start popping up all over the goddamn place to troll the libs.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35263 on: March 06, 2020, 01:24:40 pm »

And for Nate Bronze of all things.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35264 on: March 06, 2020, 02:05:03 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:12:13 pm by dragdeler »
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