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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4470958 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30315 on: May 21, 2019, 03:51:05 pm »

Plus, the not-Clinton vote is how we got Trump, so, that kind of thinking isn't neccesarily a good way to choose a candidate.
Glad to see this conspiracy theory is still alive and well.

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What's the problem with Harris? She did say that Biden would make a nice running mate, don't know what was up with that, sarcasm maybe?
Harris's record during her time as a DA/AG is a pretty serious black mark in some ways, honestly. MSH being as virulently anti-cop as they are isn't going to be particularly fond of 'er. E: There may be more going on there, but it'd be my first guess. Harris functionally codes as 'cop', to a fair extent.
Ding ding. Imagine not being anti-cop. The only thing Harris deserves is a disbarment.
Gotta say I'm leaning towards Elizabeth "American Indian" Warren.
I've warmed to her some, but I'd prefer her as the Senate leader. A Warren Senate and a Sanders White House would be awesome enough to be attacked by the CIA in short order.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30316 on: May 21, 2019, 03:58:05 pm »

Gotta say I'm leaning towards Elizabeth "American Indian" Warren.
I've warmed to her some, but I'd prefer her as the Senate leader. A Warren Senate and a Sanders White House would be awesome enough to be attacked by the CIA in short order.

Yeah I'm not in her camp, exactly, but as of today she seems like my best pick.

Just waiting here, filling a tub of snark at the tap for when the DNC flubs it up proper. I have no faith left in me for man.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30317 on: May 21, 2019, 04:48:50 pm »

Faith?  Never lose faith in humanity's ability to lower your expectations for it.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30318 on: May 21, 2019, 05:05:57 pm »

Faith?  Never lose faith in humanity's ability to lower your expectations for it.

That's a such positive way to phrase it, too.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30319 on: May 21, 2019, 09:32:27 pm »

Harris's record during her time as a DA/AG is a pretty serious black mark in some ways, honestly. MSH being as virulently anti-cop as they are isn't going to be particularly fond of 'er. E: There may be more going on there, but it'd be my first guess. Harris functionally codes as 'cop', to a fair extent.

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.


Of all the candidates proclaimed so far, Harris is the only one that actively frightens me.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30320 on: May 21, 2019, 10:21:29 pm »

Plus, the not-Clinton vote is how we got Trump, so, that kind of thinking isn't neccesarily a good way to choose a candidate.
Glad to see this conspiracy theory is still alive and well.

Conspiracy theory, wut? I didn't say it was the only reason, was just making the point that voting solely on anti-trump as a reason isn't neccesarily a good way to choose a candidate.

Harris's record during her time as a DA/AG is a pretty serious black mark in some ways, honestly. MSH being as virulently anti-cop as they are isn't going to be particularly fond of 'er. E: There may be more going on there, but it'd be my first guess. Harris functionally codes as 'cop', to a fair extent.

I know her record on guns is pretty bad though, very flip floppy, both as a DA/AG and as a Senator I believe.

Harris's record during her time as a DA/AG is a pretty serious black mark in some ways, honestly. MSH being as virulently anti-cop as they are isn't going to be particularly fond of 'er. E: There may be more going on there, but it'd be my first guess. Harris functionally codes as 'cop', to a fair extent.

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.


Of all the candidates proclaimed so far, Harris is the only one that actively frightens me.

She isn't the only one saying that though. Warren and Harris are the more vocal, but I'm pretty sure several have mentioned it, usually involving Climate Change and gun control.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30321 on: May 21, 2019, 10:31:38 pm »

If they have, I haven't heard it that I recall. I certainly haven't heard anybody else giving ultimatums the way she has.

Note that I'm not objecting to EOs that fall into perfectly legitimate executive areas - Warren urged Obama to issue at least one relating to federal contractors while he was in office, and that's a legitimate part of the Executive branch's purview. My concern with Harris is that she has openly declared an intention to usurp Congressional authority if Congress doesn't do what she wants it to do. In my view, that makes her possibly worse than Trump - because Harris is, by all signs, competent where Trump is not.


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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30322 on: May 21, 2019, 10:54:22 pm »

I was on the Gabbard train at the beginning... I'd still love to see her win it, but the polls aren't exactly showing much promise there. Out of the others who are getting more than one percentage point... I swung to Warren for a while, but... and this is nothing new, but it's starting to grate on me... a lot of her messaging feels like... just shouting loud things to get attention. I like the things she's shouting... for the most part... but it doesn't feel like it has any substance. All kinda reminding of that so so very awkward livestream of her drinking a beer next to her husband who didn't want to drink with her. Still not a terrible choice, but I'm just not excited about her anymore. Buttigieg is where I'm leaning now. But this one is weird since I don't really have any solid reason to... I can't name any specific policy stances I like about him... Just from what I've heard, he seems to be a genuine and likable guy... but that's really not any way to vote for someone, so I'm obviously going to have to put more effort into this once we get closer to voting season.

I'm not really actively hating anyone else in the running... I'd prefer someone under 70. I'd prefer someone willing to buck the establishment. But I can't say I won't vote for anyone this time around... at least among the >1%ers.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30323 on: May 21, 2019, 11:02:13 pm »

But I can't say I won't vote for anyone this time around... at least among the >1%ers.

Do you mean economically or poll wise? with 20+ candidates, there is only so much pie to go around.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 11:32:08 pm by smjjames »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30324 on: May 22, 2019, 08:50:14 am »

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.
I don't exactly disagree with you,* but most of the actual problem there isn't the president having too much power per se, it's congress repeatedly abrogating its responsibilities and powers. The presidency being as strong as it has been for the last while has less to do with it gaining new powers and more with congress not exercising it's own. That sort of campaign promise is functionally toothless if congress gets off its collective arse.

Now, if you're expecting congress to continue to just sorta' sit and spin on some subjects (say the GOP keeps the senate, which isn't exactly an impossibility) and refuse to galvanize or fight back against presidential overreach (again), well...

* Though that said, on some subjects it might could be stood if congress isn't going to do its goddamn job. Climate change is absolutely a national and damnably time sensitive emergency, just as a single example. Slopes are slippery and knock-on effects est, but we're running out of time to keep fucking around.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30325 on: May 22, 2019, 09:00:12 am »

But I can't say I won't vote for anyone this time around... at least among the >1%ers.

Do you mean economically or poll wise? with 20+ candidates, there is only so much pie to go around.

Poll wise. I admit things can change, but as of voting time, I'm probably not going to consider someone with less than 1% of the polling going towards them as a viable candidate.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30326 on: May 22, 2019, 09:30:49 am »

But I can't say I won't vote for anyone this time around... at least among the >1%ers.

Do you mean economically or poll wise? with 20+ candidates, there is only so much pie to go around.

Poll wise. I admit things can change, but as of voting time, I'm probably not going to consider someone with less than 1% of the polling going towards them as a viable candidate.

Well yeah, at voting time, a candidate polling in the area around 1% is just going to be a protest candidate at best (though some people I know would argue otherwise as far as making third party candidates viable). But right now, the DNC requirement for the debates (the first two sets at least anyway) set it at 1% and as mentioned here, there are many candidates who poll in the area of 1%.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30327 on: May 22, 2019, 10:37:56 am »

But I can't say I won't vote for anyone this time around... at least among the >1%ers.

Do you mean economically or poll wise? with 20+ candidates, there is only so much pie to go around.

Poll wise. I admit things can change, but as of voting time, I'm probably not going to consider someone with less than 1% of the polling going towards them as a viable candidate.

Well yeah, at voting time, a candidate polling in the area around 1% is just going to be a protest candidate at best (though some people I know would argue otherwise as far as making third party candidates viable). But right now, the DNC requirement for the debates (the first two sets at least anyway) set it at 1% and as mentioned here, there are many candidates who poll in the area of 1%.

Maybe I should have raised that to 2% based on that article. That's closer to what I meant. But I was thinking more along the lines of "consistently getting at least 1%" Those rules only require 1% in 3 polls (out of a ton of them). You can get 1% in 3 polls without even running. But consistently? That's a little harder. (Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama both have at least 3 polls >1% and neither of them are running this election.)

But yeah, I'll change my number to 2%, that's easier to deal with.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30328 on: May 22, 2019, 11:15:18 am »

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.
I don't exactly disagree with you,* but most of the actual problem there isn't the president having too much power per se, it's congress repeatedly abrogating its responsibilities and powers. The presidency being as strong as it has been for the last while has less to do with it gaining new powers and more with congress not exercising it's own. That sort of campaign promise is functionally toothless if congress gets off its collective arse.

Now, if you're expecting congress to continue to just sorta' sit and spin on some subjects (say the GOP keeps the senate, which isn't exactly an impossibility) and refuse to galvanize or fight back against presidential overreach (again), well...

* Though that said, on some subjects it might could be stood if congress isn't going to do its goddamn job. Climate change is absolutely a national and damnably time sensitive emergency, just as a single example. Slopes are slippery and knock-on effects est, but we're running out of time to keep fucking around.

 "Doing nothing" is as much a Congressional right as doing something is. If anything, a "If Congress won't act, I will!" encourages a broken Congress, because it removes the incentives to compromise. The ones that support a measure won't compromise because they're going to "win" by fiat, while congresscritters that oppose the measure won't want to compromise because compromise makes you look weak to the voters and an EO is a lot easier to fight in the court.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30329 on: May 22, 2019, 11:23:04 am »

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.
I don't exactly disagree with you,* but most of the actual problem there isn't the president having too much power per se, it's congress repeatedly abrogating its responsibilities and powers. The presidency being as strong as it has been for the last while has less to do with it gaining new powers and more with congress not exercising it's own. That sort of campaign promise is functionally toothless if congress gets off its collective arse.

Now, if you're expecting congress to continue to just sorta' sit and spin on some subjects (say the GOP keeps the senate, which isn't exactly an impossibility) and refuse to galvanize or fight back against presidential overreach (again), well...

* Though that said, on some subjects it might could be stood if congress isn't going to do its goddamn job. Climate change is absolutely a national and damnably time sensitive emergency, just as a single example. Slopes are slippery and knock-on effects est, but we're running out of time to keep fucking around.

Yeah, it's kind of a combination double edged sword and two-way street, a good deal of the talk is from Congress not doing it's job and not asserting it's own powers while cherry picking just who to fight back against, which sends an extremely confused message, and it's not solely one party or the other, both parties have blame in the issue which started long before Trump became President.

From another perspective, Harris's "If Congress does not enact my agenda, I WILL enact it through imperial fiat executive order" campaign promise is not a reassuring thing when one of the biggest problems with the country is the President having too much power.
I don't exactly disagree with you,* but most of the actual problem there isn't the president having too much power per se, it's congress repeatedly abrogating its responsibilities and powers. The presidency being as strong as it has been for the last while has less to do with it gaining new powers and more with congress not exercising it's own. That sort of campaign promise is functionally toothless if congress gets off its collective arse.

Now, if you're expecting congress to continue to just sorta' sit and spin on some subjects (say the GOP keeps the senate, which isn't exactly an impossibility) and refuse to galvanize or fight back against presidential overreach (again), well...

* Though that said, on some subjects it might could be stood if congress isn't going to do its goddamn job. Climate change is absolutely a national and damnably time sensitive emergency, just as a single example. Slopes are slippery and knock-on effects est, but we're running out of time to keep fucking around.

Ironically enough, a Sanders or Warren win would actually increase the odds of the Republicans holding the Senate, because they're senators from states with Republican governors. That means that those governors get to pick temporary replacements until snap elections, and throwing in another senatorial election into the mix is just one more risk of losing a race that they can't afford to lose. They'd have to resign right after winning the Presidency to trigger those elections before they take power, and that might prove impossible if, say, Trump contests the results.

Let me guess, you also read that 538 article on the Senate? heh. The key word there is temporarily, but they already have an uphil battle from the start to retake the Senate.

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Well, let me rephrase- when Trump contests the results.

I have a feeling Florida will come up again, it's been a perennial electoral troublemaker (in the wrench-in-the-works sense, plus it's a swing state with close results) and there is a reasonable place to contest close results. However, given that he contested three million votes even though he won anyway and had no logical reason to contest those votes, I can easily see him trying to contest everything if he loses, or perhaps even if he won.

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-quote pyramid trim- (plus I already quoted the quotes that lord shonus quoted)

 "Doing nothing" is as much a Congressional right as doing something is. If anything, a "If Congress won't act, I will!" encourages a broken Congress, because it removes the incentives to compromise. The ones that support a measure won't compromise because they're going to "win" by fiat, while congresscritters that oppose the measure won't want to compromise because compromise makes you look weak to the voters and an EO is a lot easier to fight in the court.

But what if the incentive to compromise has been removed via other means before that? It's a chicken-egg scenario. Obama did his EO (though some Dems did say that doing that was too much) because he was frustrated at Congress and Congress was refusing to compromise. I know it's more complex than just not compromising, but theres a feedback effect here since both actions feed off of each other. Basically, what if saying 'if Congress won't act, I will!' is a sign of a broken Congress rather than the other way around? Though I suppose it'd be a sign that both are broken, which comes right back to the chicken-egg thing.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:30:29 am by smjjames »
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