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[smjjames]

No honor among thieves. Not strictly new news, but it does show the type of characters Trump surrounds himself with, which isn’t exactly new news either.

[Hanslanda]

One of my F’book friends posted that meme about “Curt” Cobain saying once his generation has matured, they’ll vote for someone sensible, like a business tycoon, like Trump.

I mean, that's what you get for using Facebook still. Anyone who isn't terrible left Facebook a decade ago.

Also don't take advice from suicidally depressed heroin addicts maybe.

[Kagus]

One of my F’book friends posted that meme about “Curt” Cobain saying once his generation has matured, they’ll vote for someone sensible, like a business tycoon, like Trump.

I mean, that's what you get for using Facebook still. Anyone who isn't terrible left Facebook a decade ago.

Also don't take advice from suicidally depressed heroin addicts maybe.

Especially when the quote is completely made up and no record of Kurt saying anything of the sort exists.

[Max™]

And in practice yes, socialism is about getting free shit. That's what people are attracted to when they come out in support of it, that's the promise it makes to recruit new followers, and that's what most of its supporters see as the prize for victory when they go in for it.

Wait, I thought being able to call "dibs" on some industry or material and have other people work in it/on it to turn it into a more valuable form before calling "dibs" on that increased value was a way to get free shit, or is it just different because it gets called profit?

We can take potshots at Cold War bogeymen and make a raft from the bagpipes after we revealed all the fake Scots if you really wanna, but what is it actually going to do?

Who benefits from this discussion?

I mean, if I was a rich old white fuckbag who was heavily invested in a capitalist economy--where I was sitting on top of the heap--I would probably prefer people spend time arguing about why socialist strawman A is actually something else because socialist hypothetical type B is not as bad... instead of them reframing the discussion in a way that doesn't paint rentseeking and profiting off of laborers as the way things should be.

Don't let shitsacks like Trump--or the hateful turdmongers that encourage him to parrot pro-capitalist nonsense at Fox--decide the bounds of acceptable discussion for you.

Was anyone here aware that some of the very same motherfuckers responsible for Reagan's "fuck the poor, the brown, and the female" ideology are happily puking the same hateful bullshit through Trump's earholes into that empty space under the dead cat on his head?

Is anyone surprised when they learn how many members of our government were aware of Russian interference and ignored it because Trump is a big stupid orange sockpuppet they can regularly pump full of garbage while they keep doing their own thing in the background?

Anybody else alarmed at the idea that we ended up with a deliberately offensive clownhole because it's a lot easier to rob a house when there is a parade of angry morons stomping down the road banging on trashcans so nobody notices when a window breaks and people start carrying out valuables through the back yard to a truck in the alley?

[Magistrum]

I'll never understand how people can rationalize wage slavery and feel good about themselves.

[LordBaal]

You have the choice to leave and find another work, you can aspire to get more money and scale the salary ladder by performance and/or getting more academic achievements and eventually you are also allowed to start a business and eventually employ other people. Is really far from slavery as long the enomy works at least halfassedy.

[Frumple]

as long the enomy works at least halfassedy.

I'll take, "Thing what isn't happening for a great deal of the country's population," for 400, Alex.

[Baffler]

We can take potshots at Cold War bogeymen and make a raft from the bagpipes after we revealed all the fake Scots if you really wanna, but what is it actually going to do?

Who benefits from this discussion?

Nobody, but we're here for our amusement, not our benefit. The problem perhaps is that we're both attacking words rather than actually knowing what the other person is actually advocating.

I mean, if I was a rich old white fuckbag who was heavily invested in a capitalist economy--where I was sitting on top of the heap--I would probably prefer people spend time arguing about why socialist strawman A is actually something else because socialist hypothetical type B is not as bad... instead of them reframing the discussion in a way that doesn't paint rentseeking and profiting off of laborers as the way things should be.

Why must it be a racial issue?

And if you want to talk about strawmen you will hard pressed to find anyone who will defend rent seeking. "Profiting off of laborers" on the other hand, is a very ideological way of perceiving the labor market. Organizing a productive enterprise and contributing the capital required to actually start it are of paramount importance. Do you actually believe that executives just sit around doing nothing but collecting a check? Or that shareholders don't contribute anything of value to enterprise? Organizations, especially large organizations, need to be managed, or they will collapse into a mess of confusion, infighting, and factionalism, and drag the livelihoods of who knows how many people along with them. Managing large organizations effectively and making good choices for them going forward is an uncommon skill. Shareholders, large shareholders anyway, usually do take part in the management process. But even if they don't they still provide both funding for the organization (through investment) and they keep the organization on task - being a productive enterprise - instead of making room for entryists, or people who want to use the organization's resources for whatever their pet project or cause may be. Nobody is forcing you to work for anybody either, unlike what happened in the "'owned' by the workers and managed for them by the state" model of socialism that set the standard for the model in practice you are perfectly free to set out to make your own living. There's no guarantee you'll succeed of course, but there was no guarantee anyone else would either. If you haven't got any useful skills, haven't got any idea how to run a business, and haven't got an actual plan you will almost certainly fail, but nobody is stopping you from doing that, either! Just don't expect anyone else to pitch in to fund it for you.

For all that though the actual central thrust of socialism, 'worker ownership,' is not objectionable to me at all. There's no ideological reason things like co-ops, or stock options for employees, or profit sharing compensation schemes shouldn't exist. There are a shitload of small businesses where a group of partners get together, pool capital, and do all or most of the enterprise's work by themselves. I'm not convinced of the practical benefits of some of the more peripheral practices like democratic management (the only example of a decent sized company run like this that I can think of is the Mondragon corporation, which has done nothing but move away from its syndicalist roots since its foundation, maybe Spanish Bay12ers know more about them) but I don't see that even really see as a political issue. It's just an optimization problem. I will never, ever trust socialists with power though, because they are inseparably linked for both historical and practical reasons to a lot of other, far more terrible ideas. Marxism, class warfare, atheism, internationalism, violent "redistribution," liquidation of inconvenient peoples, political groups, and social classes, and political repression are all part and parcel, in whole or in part; and in the modern era we can add mass migration, overt anti-white rhetoric, and cancerous sexual politics to the list as well.

Don't let shitsacks like Trump--or the hateful turdmongers that encourage him to parrot pro-capitalist nonsense at Fox--decide the bounds of acceptable discussion for you.

Believe me, I don't. I've just seen what you're selling and I don't want it.

[Frumple]

Walked by TV. Trump states to a crowd he's going to get rid of the Red Tide down here in Florida. No explanation, no indication of how. The fuck.

[hector13]

He does that all the time why are you surprised.

[Frumple]

Yeah, but usually he's pissing his bullshit over someone else's state. There's apparently some kneejerk "feck off ye' uppity yankee prick" left in me.

[ChairmanPoo]

(the only example of a decent sized company run like this that I can think of is the Mondragon corporation, which has done nothing but move away from its syndicalist roots since its foundation, maybe Spanish Bay12ers know more about them)

I can tell you that any semblance of a socialistic structure is long gone if it ever was present. For all practical intents and purposes it's a corporation which uses stock as an employee bonus/compensation. I dont claim to know the details on how it works but I do know that one particular cashier I knew was unhappy and thought it was a way of binding people - if they leave the enterprise they lose quite  a bit of stuff in the process. And it doesnt really give low level employees any real influence.
They ARE pretty huge, for what it's worth, though. Even though the crisis hit them pretty hard.

My father does frequent business with them. I could tell you stories. But we'll leave that for another time :p

[Trekkin]

Walked by TV. Trump states to a crowd he's going to get rid of the Red Tide down here in Florida. No explanation, no indication of how. The fuck.

It's actually a smart strategy for him. Assuming arguendo it doesn't just get lost in the noise, he gets a lot of scientists to call wrong and fake news when they try to explain how you can't just do that. "Scientists said I wouldn't be President either, neener neener." Much stupid laughter is had at the expense of the liberal elite. Then the MAGA hats forget, because anterograde amnesia is a basic prerequisite for Trumpism, and the news cycle rolls over and hopefully everyone talks about how scientifically illiterate he is instead of how poor he is.

[Dunamisdeos]

Doesn't it often bloom and fade, despite it being particularly bad right now? I bet you 10 bux he's going to just wait for it to recede naturally and pretend that he pissed in the water and it turned itself to gold or some such.

[Baffler]

It could be somewhat controlled by reducing agricultural runoff maybe, but I don't know how much of a factor that is in South(?) Florida and that still wouldn't stop it. But for some reason I don't think that's what he meant. Most generously it was just typical pandering with a nonspecific promise to maybe look into a thing people don't like, but probably not do anything either way.