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[Reelya]

There's also the financial costs. Going out picking up is expensive, time-consuming and very hit and miss. Also you need to have drinks, and that's unhealthy.

Bars are fun sometimes, but they're the "normal" way we decided you meet dates, and that's part of the problem. Unless you're a Christian or something, in which case you meet a Christian girl through church and you get married. For us secular types, society decided drunken slums were the way to meet your soulmate.

[wierd]

Sadly, the only way to meet people you do not know, is to go to a shared communal space.

In today's risk averse culture, there are very few of those.  The super market is about the only place everyone has to end up at, at some point.

The "Hanging out like a creep" thing is true no matter the situational environs; Hanging out at the coffee shop for that reason is just as creepy. (Hence, all the advice about "not looking too desperate", etc.)

Internet interaction is not a suitable replacement, because it has manicured contact lists, and the suggestions from services are the result of demographic filtering to keep people in their comfort zones, and are NOT real random interaction.


I dont see a valid solution, other than to abandon the risk-aversion culture.

[Teneb]

One modern issue is the lack of organized ways of meeting people as this article points out:

In days gone by, we had rituals such as dances and balls and socials, where interaction was expected, humiliation mitigated. Men and women were brought into contact by customs.

More recent options is that everyone gets hammered on piss in nightclubs with music so loud you can't even think, let alone talk to anyone. And if you read articles about where to meet women some of the advice was goddamn laughable, like "meet them in the vegetable aisle in the supermarket" sort of shit (which is a whole genre of advice apparently. Google "how to meet women in the supermarket"). No wonder people aren't meeting people if hanging out like a creep in the supermarket is a viable alternative to terrible drunk nightclubs.

This is one thing we don't normally consider. How goddamn disorganized the whole "meeting potential mates" thing actually became from the 1970s onwards. Other advice like "go to D&D nights if you like D&D and you might meet your D&D playing soulmate there" are equally terrible. you're like to meet someone either ugly or already attached to someone else, and that's if you don't end up in the 99% of groups with almost all dudes.

It gets worse if you refuse to drink (like me). Especially since people think that "no drinking = never invite to anything ever".

Frankly I don't care about sex very much, but a (healthy, non-toxic) relationship is appealing to me. Too bad the people who flirt and express interest in me are folks whose looks I do not find attractive: big swole/ripped muscly dudebros.


Also anxiety, that's always a problem.
(And depression for others, though I am fortunately pretty much undepressable)

FAKEDIT: NINJAS EVERYWHERE

[Kagus]

The notion that "Dayum, that ugly toad had it work out? Why can't I then?!" does not seem to dawn nearly enough

This is because you're never attractive enough to attract the person you actually want to attract, therefore you consider yourself "unattractive" in whatever senses of the word are meaningful to you.

You don't literally pop out a baby every time you put your hoohoodilly in her cha-cha. Especially with birth control.

And it also isn't 100% safe even with birth control, and it only takes one time not working to completely and irrevocably change your life. This means that, best case scenario, you need to only risk it with people you fully trust to not fuck your life over in such an eventuality. And who can you trust these days?

Other advice like "go to D&D nights if you like D&D and you might meet your D&D playing soulmate there" are equally terrible. you're like to meet someone either ugly or already attached to someone else, and that's if you don't end up in the 99% of groups with almost all dudes.

Funny thing, one of my regular bartenders met her beau at D&D... And she's one o' them leggy Finnish blondes.

She told me about her Green Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer though, so she's probably shit at actually playing. That might play a part.

[nenjin]

For me, when family or friends have bee like "Why don't you want to have kids/own a home/etc..."

I ask them what I'm getting out of. "Oh the joy of raising another human life, continuing your family legacy, the feeling that you've accomplished something...."

And my reaction is always "The difficulty, cost and risks of raising a child outweigh the benefit of knowing they're mine. The concept of a family legacy to me isn't important, families will grow and diminish whether or not I'm involved. The feeling of accomplishment comes from a life time of society telling me what it expects me to do with my life and that's the pay off: feeling like I completed goals that someone else other than me dictated."

If I found someone I really liked, that I wanted to share the experience of raising a kid with and creating a family life, I'd do it. But they'd have to be pretty special. Shit my brother married his wife like 7 years ago or something, and even they have no interest in having kids. It just seems like a lot of work and expense for an unknown quantity of fulfillment.

And for me personally, I've seen enough marriages and families implode that it makes me question why any of it is worth the attempt. I like the things I prioritize now, and a family and kids requires a re-prioritization of what matters because.....you chose to do a thing that made you re-prioritize. Kind of like a chicken and egg thing.

Put another way, I don't fault anyone for going that route because it's obviously what they wanted. What's annoying is that society at large doesn't extend the same kind of understanding to people who want to take a different path with their life. When I want something, I go after it. If I'm not going after it, it's because I don't want it.

People will always willingly invest their energy in something they want. Doesn't matter if that's drugs, video games, a partner, a home, or a family. And I know myself well enough not to try to force myself to get in to something I know I don't actually want.

Too bad the people who flirt and express interest in me are folks whose looks I do not find attractive: big swole/ripped muscly dudebros.

Are you female Teneb, or just of the other persuasion? Always assumed you were male. (You don't really need to answer this.)

Internet interaction is not a suitable replacement, because it has manicured contact lists, and the suggestions from services are the result of demographic filtering to keep people in their comfort zones, and are NOT real random interaction.

I met a girl playing WoW and it got serious enough I traveled to meet her and we met uh....genital to genital. It didn't work out in the end, mostly due to money and logistics more than anything.

So while the internet isn't a suitable replacement, it's true, it's still a functioning venue for social interaction that can lead to other things. And frankly, I find a woman way sexier when she can bant with me with her words and her wits through text while sober, than when I meet one half drunk in a bar face to face.

Really it's the question of what you do after you have sex with someone. I've always wanted a relationship, not just sex. And having sex with no real intention of a relationship has always felt pretty dishonest to me. Unless someone comes up and is like "You want to to just be fuck buddies", I'm not going to go out and put the moves on someone with no intention of following it up. There are millions of pretty faces out there, but only a few people that actually "work" for you. Internet porn has kind of numbed me to the absolute value of beauty. It's whether I actually click with someone that motivates me toward sexy time.

[wierd]

Having a child results in a statistical net LOSS of total happiness.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600024?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

So, there's that too.

[Teneb]

Too bad the people who flirt and express interest in me are folks whose looks I do not find attractive: big swole/ripped muscly dudebros.

Are you female Teneb, or just of the other persuasion? Always assumed you were male. (You don't really need to answer this.)

Bisexual male.


And to adress something in your post, during my birthday in the 1st of this month, by great-aunt calls me to wish me a happy birthday, ask how old I am and to tell me, and I quote (translating), that "it's time you got yourself a bride" (she doesn't know I'm bi).

[MrRoboto75]

The notion that "Dayum, that ugly toad had it work out? Why can't I then?!" does not seem to dawn nearly enough

This is because you're never attractive enough to attract the person you actually want to attract, therefore you consider yourself "unattractive" in whatever senses of the word are meaningful to you.

In online dating, being average isn't good enough.

[Kagus]

And to adress something in your post, during my birthday in the 1st of this month, by great-aunt calls me to wish me a happy birthday, ask how old I am and to tell me, and I quote (translating), that "it's time you got yourself a bride" (she doesn't know I'm bi).

Tell her you're just biding your time.

My grandfather once gave me a fairly round-the-bush speech talking about how "well, certain experts have said that according to studies, individuals blah blah...", basically that right now was the biologically superior time to have a baby and raise it. Distilled to its essence: Give us a grandbaby you layabout.

I was nineteen.

[wierd]

same sex marriage is a thing.  But, it needs a special someone all the same.

outside expectations infringing on your own happiness are unnecessary trappings.  If the source of those outside expectations objects, remind them who is getting married, and for what reasons.  EG, you get married for yourself and your spouse, not for your great aunt's satisfaction.

[nenjin]

The notion that "Dayum, that ugly toad had it work out? Why can't I then?!" does not seem to dawn nearly enough

This is because you're never attractive enough to attract the person you actually want to attract, therefore you consider yourself "unattractive" in whatever senses of the word are meaningful to you.

In online dating, being average isn't good enough.

There are plenty of average people who would settle for average people if they'd just set their expectations to something realistic. I set my standards too high, but that's because I'm not desperate to be in a relationship with someone, so if I'm going to be with someone I want to to be "Wow" by my standards.

If you "just don't want to be alone anymore" there are many, many, many people out there who are just waiting for someone to say they're good enough.

My grandfather once gave me a fairly round-the-bush speech talking about how "well, certain experts have said that according to studies, individuals blah blah...", basically that right now was the biologically superior time to have a baby and raise it. Distilled to its essence: Give us a grandbaby you layabout.

There's some truth to this. Having kids late in life can make things weird for your kids. Being 19 and having parents in their 60s is a different experience than your parents raising you in their prime.

[smjjames]

Having a child results in a statistical net LOSS of total happiness.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600024?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

So, there's that too.

That doesn't mean everybody has a net loss in happyness.

Still, the major factor is also simply being able to afford having a kid and no on-the-job support for childcare and all that. Some of it is also from women having a kid later in life, but that shouldn't affect birthrate much. I'm sure many of you have heard of the saying 'it takes a village to raise a kid'. The fact that you're seeing similar declines regardless of culture and most other factors besides economics points to something that transcends all of those factors.

[Teneb]

And to adress something in your post, during my birthday in the 1st of this month, by great-aunt calls me to wish me a happy birthday, ask how old I am and to tell me, and I quote (translating), that "it's time you got yourself a bride" (she doesn't know I'm bi).

Tell her you're just biding your time.

My grandfather once gave me a fairly round-the-bush speech talking about how "well, certain experts have said that according to studies, individuals blah blah...", basically that right now was the biologically superior time to have a baby and raise it. Distilled to its essence: Give us a grandbaby you layabout.

I was nineteen.

same sex marriage is a thing.  But, it needs a special someone all the same.

outside expectations infringing on your own happiness are unnecessary trappings.  If the source of those outside expectations objects, remind them who is getting married, and for what reasons.  EG, you get married for yourself and your spouse, not for your great aunt's satisfaction.

same sex marriage is a thing.  But, it needs a special someone all the same.

outside expectations infringing on your own happiness are unnecessary trappings.  If the source of those outside expectations objects, remind them who is getting married, and for what reasons.  EG, you get married for yourself and your spouse, not for your great aunt's satisfaction.

I don't exactly interact with her a lot. Helps that she never leaves her home in another city. Hell, I don't think I'd even marry even if I got into a serious relationship.

I just barely tolerate her, no way I'm doing a pun that won't even work in pt-br to expose my sexuality to her.

For the record, she's not a nice person. My grandmother (her sister) once, rightfuly, decked her because she was whipping both her kids and her housemaids with a belt.

[nenjin]

As shit as it sounds, I can understand whipping your kids with a belt. (That's how I was raised.) But your goddamn hired staff? She sounds like a monster.

[wierd]

Having a child results in a statistical net LOSS of total happiness.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600024?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

So, there's that too.

That doesn't mean everybody has a net loss in happyness.

Still, the major factor is also simply being able to afford having a kid and no on-the-job support for childcare and all that. Some of it is also from women having a kid later in life, but that shouldn't affect birthrate much. I'm sure many of you have heard of the saying 'it takes a village to raise a kid'. The fact that you're seeing similar declines regardless of culture and most other factors besides economics points to something that transcends all of those factors.

Well, you could always do what the girls I work with do, and bring the tykes to work ANYWAY, despite a lack of facilities for them.

(Seriously, there are on average, 2 to 4 children just hanging out in the breakroom all damn day, getting into other people's stuff, and in general being a menace because they have nothing to do, and are trapped there while mom works.  I've had to put a lock on my locker to keep said children out of my stuff.)


In regard to actual unhappiness--- you would need to be very well secured in your financials and home situation to not experience a significant upswing of existential dread and uncertainty associated with the increased costs, in both time and resources, of child care.  Those are things the current generational cohort does NOT have in abundance.