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[Maximum Spin]

I think the West, at least, has a pretty grim culture that requires men to be manly where that is a penalty, and to conform entirely to a modern way of acting (passive and nonaggressive) where that is a penalty.  As such, a man who complains or fights is less manly or a shitlord, respectively.  We are vilified in every aspect, and it is (and the stats back me up here) ending in suicide.  Women can shout and scream and attack, but a man who wants to retain his standing and his freedom has no recourse, and it's making us more bitter, bottled and lonely.

When I see this kind of complaint I think "what the hell West are you living in then?"

Now I'll grant you that I'm not the most social person, but I do interact with people voluntarily now and again, here in the deep red district I live in, and I have never felt like any of that was true. The West is not just one culture.

[Max™]

I don't know what paradox interactive is, and didn't care to screw with steam back in the dark ages when I allowed windows in any form on my system, that there are linux versions available doesn't change my lack of interest in non-df games these days.

[RedKing]

I think the West, at least, has a pretty grim culture that requires men to be manly where that is a penalty, and to conform entirely to a modern way of acting (passive and nonaggressive) where that is a penalty.  As such, a man who complains or fights is less manly or a shitlord, respectively.  We are vilified in every aspect, and it is (and the stats back me up here) ending in suicide.  Women can shout and scream and attack, but a man who wants to retain his standing and his freedom has no recourse, and it's making us more bitter, bottled and lonely.

When I see this kind of complaint I think "what the hell West are you living in then?"

Now I'll grant you that I'm not the most social person, but I do interact with people voluntarily now and again, here in the deep red district I live in, and I have never felt like any of that was true. The West is not just one culture.

^^^^
This.

I do pretty well with not having to complain or fight about shit, and when I do, hordes of feminazis don't magically appear to oppress me in the name of the Matriarchy. Probably because I'm not complaining about how hard it is to be a man and how unfair it is that women....I dunno, have rights and a voice? 

I'm not some uber-ripped gym jock, and I'm not some neutered sopmilk. There is in fact a happy medium within which hundreds of millions of men exist every day in "the West".

[Starver]

Inb4 USA goes to war with Honolulu to avenge pearl harbour

FTFY.

Or, if not Honolulu, anywhere else in Kenya will probably do: Naomi, Mufasa, Tiramisu, Nackered, Eldorado, Melania*, (Rodin's) Thinker, Kitty, etc...


* - after checking that his wife, Melanie, didn't come from there. Or, if she did, if it would bother her at all.

[wierd]

I think the West, at least, has a pretty grim culture that requires men to be manly where that is a penalty, and to conform entirely to a modern way of acting (passive and nonaggressive) where that is a penalty.  As such, a man who complains or fights is less manly or a shitlord, respectively.  We are vilified in every aspect, and it is (and the stats back me up here) ending in suicide.  Women can shout and scream and attack, but a man who wants to retain his standing and his freedom has no recourse, and it's making us more bitter, bottled and lonely.

When I see this kind of complaint I think "what the hell West are you living in then?"

Now I'll grant you that I'm not the most social person, but I do interact with people voluntarily now and again, here in the deep red district I live in, and I have never felt like any of that was true. The West is not just one culture.

It's what happens when you have incumbent "Testosterone man" (eg, "strong-man", or "manly-man") culture (old world conservative views on being an adult male) not letting go, along with a strong and rising tide of "House husband" culture.

The two are mutually exclusive, but the proponents of both cultures don't care.  If you are one of those, you get vilified by the other. 

The issue, is that many millennials are actual more "otaku" culture than anything else.  Having grown up under conditions where parents would rather that they by "safe" than socialized, most millennial boys/young men use digital communication as the first line of communication, rarely go out to do things (and so have difficulty scheduling a group outdoor activity, and if they do so, often have difficulty finding fun things to do with their time while out with friends), they tend to "do their own thing." rather than conform to either of the prior stereotypes being promulgated as the ideal.

Couple that with the inherent isolation of otaku culture, and you have people who get stuck in feedback loops about ridicule, and end up with bad self-image, and bad opinions of other people in meat-space, which reinforces the digital-only communication bottleneck that contributes to the isolation problem.

They tend to be a bit of both stereotypes-- (they can be gender-stereotype chauvinists, and they can also be very "genderfluid" as well. It's a mixed bag.) as such, the vocal groups in the "testosterone man" and "house husband" camps each see them as "THEM!", and there is no middle for them to feel accepted socially.

I would chalk this up to another casualty of the west's recent decent into outright "US/THEM!" thinking on every god damned thing, and the abandonment of reason for emotional decision making en-mass.  Our media plays a significant role in this development, as the MSM has an invested interest in producing and sustaining controversy whenever and wherever possible.  This includes culture shift issues.

If you note, the MSM has a difficult time understanding the millennial generation as anything other than "Those aberrant, lazy kids!"

[Kagus]

Well, I'll have you all know that I had my virginity taken by a lovely young divorcée who dragged a nearly-unconscious and incredibly drunk Kagus into bed with her and then claimed that I was the one who instigated the whole affair. This being after she'd laid claim to the bedroom I was supposed to be staying in, and then insisting that I later share "her" bed with her because "her conscience wouldn't let me sleep on the couch".

When I later found out that she had in fact been plotting this since before the festivities began and had pointedly said to her friend: "Him. I'm going to fuck him tonight" earlier that evening, I contested her statement that I was the one who made the first advances. Her reply was simply "Oops. You weren't supposed to find out about that ". The lady does specifically identify as and refer to herself as a "proud man-hater", so it makes sense that she'd never want to admit attraction to anyone of the XY persuasion...


That's purely small-sample anecdotal stuff though. And I do actually know non-horrible women, it's just... I never seem to end up having relationships with them.

[SalmonGod]

I think the West, at least, has a pretty grim culture that requires men to be manly where that is a penalty, and to conform entirely to a modern way of acting (passive and nonaggressive) where that is a penalty.  As such, a man who complains or fights is less manly or a shitlord, respectively.  We are vilified in every aspect, and it is (and the stats back me up here) ending in suicide.  Women can shout and scream and attack, but a man who wants to retain his standing and his freedom has no recourse, and it's making us more bitter, bottled and lonely.

When I see this kind of complaint I think "what the hell West are you living in then?"

Now I'll grant you that I'm not the most social person, but I do interact with people voluntarily now and again, here in the deep red district I live in, and I have never felt like any of that was true. The West is not just one culture.

I also live in Indiana.  Quite red.  And I've heard from men who lost everything, because they left bruises on their wife/girlfriend's wrist when they were on rampages of breaking stuff or being a danger to themselves.  I knew a guy who spent a night in jail, because neighbors called police when he was having an argument with his girlfriend, who was screaming and breaking things.  His girlfriend told the police it was all her and asked them not to arrest him, and was told that it's state policy to always arrest the man in any domestic disturbance situation.

My wife is an anger addict.  She can react explosively to the most unexpected things.  One time she was driving and suddenly screeched into a parking lot, got out, and said she was walking home.  I found out later that it was because she didn't like the way I phrased some bit of information that I was passing on to someone for her over the phone.  We had kids in the car.  So I switched to the driver's seat and followed along beside her asking what the hell just happened.  In less than 2 minutes, we were surrounded by 5 cop cars.  I was ordered out of the car.  Nearly a dozen cops stood around with body language imposing towards me, as we explained to a lead officer that we were married and having an argument.  They let us go with a stern warning, but I've often thought that if I were any less clean cut looking, I probably would have been arrested that night.  And if I were black, I could have died.

The epidemic of male loneliness is most often blamed on issues with toxic masculinity.  But roughly 50% of men report encountering psychological aggression in their relationships (the same rate as women).  The efforts to protect women (which aren't unjustified - just unsophisticated) result in an environment where men are pressured to keep things quiet, under risk of being assumed by default to be the abusers.  It's suffer in silence or leave.  Those are really the only options.  Ask any feminist why women don't find it easy to leave an abusive relationship.  You'll find plenty of answers that can apply to both genders.  Add that if children are involved, leaving involves the weighing the likelihood of abandoning them to a single abusive parent.

[RedKing]

Couple that with the inherent isolation of otaku culture, and you have people who get stuck in feedback loops about ridicule, and end up with bad self-image, and bad opinions of other people in meat-space, which reinforces the digital-only communication bottleneck that contributes to the isolation problem.

So you're saying socially awkward loners get on the Internet, where they're made fun of by other socially awkward loners, and thus become more socially awkward and loner? Actually, I can buy that.
Still doesn't completely answer why you kids aren't out there fucking like weasels in heat, though.

And I refuse to believe it's a generational thing. Or if it is, it's post-Millenial. Because I know a number of Millenials (and have slept with a number of Millenials) >_>

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Reelya]

I think you got it spot on EH. It's not that The Young People are choosing to have less sex, and by consequence less children, but rather that they can't and the society and culture they live in actively hates out their opportunities. I also think there's a grim malaise towards the future, with the outcome of the future seeming more and more dire by the day, generally disincentivizing family starting, whereas a more hopeful and optimistic outlook would allow people to feel more secure starting a family.

Yeah, this kind of thing is also prevalent in all those verbatim-repeated Japanese new stories blaming "anime" or similar for declining birth rates in Japan, blaming lack of sex as the cause of birth declines, and blaming anime for the lack of sex. It's an easy target, but any sort of rational thinking about the matter would show that it's not a credible cause for a nation-wide serious decline in the marriage rate. A large majority of average Japanese are in fact relatively clueless about anime, and only know the super-well known ones.

And these idiotic Japanese "moral panic" type stories then get picked up by the credulous foreign media as if it's proven fact. It's really just blame-passing to "new fangled kid's stuff" so that the culture as a whole doesn't have to ask itself any deeper questions. And it fits the weeb-bashing narrative.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1008177.shtml

Headline: Japan otaku culture spurs population drop

... Note that not once in the article is it explained how otaku actually have anything to do with population drops.

And the article (written by a Chinese person) makes the point that China has a more robust baby-making culture than the decadent otaku-ridden Japan. Which is clearly bullshit since Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea all have fertility rates lower than Japan. Additionally, several states in the USA have fertility rates barely higher than Japan, and I can't see that "otaku" explains that.

[JoshuaFH]

I'm not sure why you're quoting me when you're responding  to Wierd? But I think by 'Otaku Culture' he doesn't just mean weeby anime people, I think it's the mindset of obsessiveness and isolation; maybe Wierd can clarify that.

[Trekkin]

Still doesn't completely answer why you kids aren't out there fucking like weasels in heat, though.

Well, it's not really worth it, is it? It does nothing sustainable for your brand or your career, it's a poor source of social capital, and it carries with it inherent risks of babies, diseases, legal entanglements and feelings.

It's just a poor return on investment, all things considered.

[Reelya]

Did I get something wrong in a quote, tree? Let me check

EDIT: well no. I was following on from this particular point that you made. I never read wierd's post in the first place. I started reading on the page which your post was at the top, so didn't see any posts before that.

It's not that The Young People are choosing to have less sex, and by consequence less children, but rather that they can't and the society and culture they live in actively hates out their opportunities.

By pointing out how it occurs in a different culture that's going through some of the same things. That culture is looking around for some scapegoat, and picking out some aspect of youth culture that it doesn't like. Similar to blaming vidja games for all street violence.

[wierd]

Google defines it this way:

o·ta·ku
/ōˈtäko͞o/
noun
plural noun: otaku

    (in Japan) a young person who is obsessed with computers or particular aspects of popular culture to the detriment of their social skills.

While the west's version is less "Anime girl fetish", and more "Videogame culture", they are essentially the same thing.  People stay in their comfort zone, behind their well-managed and manicured contact lists, rarely interact with people outside of them, and develop communication breakdown and difficulty when forced outside of that environment.

Weebs are just a subset of the larger class.

[Kagus]

While the west's version is less "Anime girl fetish"

Not... Not necessarily.

I mean, not speaking from personal experience of course, but just sayin'.

[nenjin]

I think it's just a cost benefit analysis on the part of millennials. Stay entertained and not have to face rejection, versus the unknown of feeling out new people, being rejected, sacrificing time for something they're unsure they want versus a thing they definitely know they want. I don't think any would turn down sex if it was put right in front of them, but if it takes real effort to achieve and carries a not-insignificant risk of rejection and damaged self-esteem....they're going to go with the safer option.

This doesn't describe all millennials but I think "risk-averse" describes a lot of them.