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[Folly]

The answer is not teaching people what they should do, but limiting what they can do.

I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you wrote there.  It reads like it is better to cage people up to prevent them from doing things instead of teaching them how to self regulate to socially acceptable behavior.

More like a cage is better than a lobotomy, since you insist on using extremely exaggerated examples.
Honestly, I can't see how you are seriously arguing that brainwashing people should be acceptable just so that they can keep their excessively deadly weapons.

[Trekkin]

I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you wrote there.  It reads like it is better to cage people up to prevent them from doing things instead of teaching them how to self regulate to socially acceptable behavior.

Teach them first, then cage them if they demonstrate they haven't learned so we can teach them again. In the interim, give them fewer lethal ways to show they need(ed) help.

[EnigmaticHat]

We don't need to pick gun control or mental health. We can do both, so that even if someone becomes dangerously violent we have a better chance of getting them under control and getting them help before people end up dead -- or, at the worst, so they can kill fewer people. Guns are just an obvious, concrete thing to control, and a partial solution today saves more lives than a better solution eventually.

Yes, that was kind of my point - but almost nobody realizes there are deeper issues than just "muh gunz!"

Can I have a specific example of a mass shooting in the past 2 years that would have been helped by better mental health services?  And how specifically the shooter could have been prevented from acting?

I'm tired of the mentally ill being used as a scapegoat for this.  We aren't killers, as much as American TV loves that trope.

[Lord Shonus]

We don't need to pick gun control or mental health. We can do both, so that even if someone becomes dangerously violent we have a better chance of getting them under control and getting them help before people end up dead -- or, at the worst, so they can kill fewer people. Guns are just an obvious, concrete thing to control, and a partial solution today saves more lives than a better solution eventually.

Yes, that was kind of my point - but almost nobody realizes there are deeper issues than just "muh gunz!"

Can I have a specific example of a mass shooting in the past 2 years that would have been helped by better mental health services?  And how specifically the shooter could have been prevented from acting?

I'm tired of the mentally ill being used as a scapegoat for this.  We aren't killers, as much as American TV loves that trope.

"Mental health services" doesn't just cover treatment for recognized mental illnesses. It also covers things like stress management, anger management, transient emotional issues, and things of that nature. We don't know what lead up to a lot of these incidents, because the perpetrator died without leaving much evidence behind, but those committed by "incels" would probably been preventable with easy access to therapy, and several bear all the hallmarks of "suicide by cop" incidents where stress or anger management would likely have solved the problem.

[Trekkin]

Can I have a specific example of a mass shooting in the past 2 years that would have been helped by better mental health services?  And how specifically the shooter could have been prevented from acting?

I'm tired of the mentally ill being used as a scapegoat for this.  We aren't killers, as much as American TV loves that trope.

Of course you can't, and you know it's not productive to ask for specifics of events that did not happen. We can however look statistically at the enriched population of "the mentally ill", overly broad though that term may be, in mass shooters relative to the general population, as the New York Times and Mother Jones have done.

As it happens I think you're right that we scapegoat people with mental illness too much, but it's not scapegoating to ask why we're failing as a society to identify and help these people any more than understanding the root causes of epidemics blames sick people. As it happens, part of that answer is probably mental healthcare in this country being terrible.

[Hanslanda]

We don't need to pick gun control or mental health. We can do both, so that even if someone becomes dangerously violent we have a better chance of getting them under control and getting them help before people end up dead -- or, at the worst, so they can kill fewer people. Guns are just an obvious, concrete thing to control, and a partial solution today saves more lives than a better solution eventually.

Yes, that was kind of my point - but almost nobody realizes there are deeper issues than just "muh gunz!"

Can I have a specific example of a mass shooting in the past 2 years that would have been helped by better mental health services?  And how specifically the shooter could have been prevented from acting?

I'm tired of the mentally ill being used as a scapegoat for this.  We aren't killers, as much as American TV loves that trope.

Mentally ill folks are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. Most murderers are completely normal people who just get fed up with shit and lose their temper. Humans happen to be violent great apes.

[PTTG??]

Well hey, at least this is the first mass violence not to have a political inspiration in months, though, so that's... uh... way less reassuring than one'd hope.

[Trekkin]

Well hey, at least this is the first mass violence not to have a political inspiration in months, though, so that's... uh... way less reassuring than one'd hope.

Do we know this? Last I heard nobody was speculating on motive.

[hector13]

Texas judge loses election, releases offenders saying “that’s what voters wanted.”

[Folly]

Well hey, at least this is the first mass violence not to have a political inspiration in months, though, so that's... uh... way less reassuring than one'd hope.

So you're not counting the guy who shot up a yoga studio because he couldn't get laid a few days ago?

[McTraveller]

That's why I included "and social stresses" - I guess I should've put that first.  Because it's not being able to deal with frustration and anger that leads to most violence.  Its social changes that make such extreme actions be the outlet instead of whatever people did in the past.

It's related to how 30 years ago when kids were stressed or mad at their parents they would threaten to run away, but now no kids threaten running away but instead say they're going to commit suicide. Everything has just been suffering from escalation.

Can't we just de-escalate?  I guess maybe you can take away people's toys, but that adds a lot of short-term tension that is likely to have even more escalation in the near-term.

[Doomblade187]

I fail to see how removing deadly wepons from a population increases tension, behind anger at losing the weapons themselves. Do you mean having to put more effort to act out?

[Folly]

That's why I included "and social stresses"

Did you?

[McTraveller]

anger at losing the weapons themselves.

That is what I meant. To avoid massive upheaval, the best bet is to just start teaching kids they don'y need guns, and let all the gun nuts age out.  Kind of like how the whole personal use of cars things is just naturally fading, since for whatever reasons kids just don't have as much interest in driving as we were socially conditioned to 20 years ago.

Just because it would be nice to have a solution to a problem now, doesn't mean the best approach is to try and force its solution today; it may be better to suffer the known pain of a gradual transition than the unknown pain of a sudden transition.

For the record, I own no guns; I just have philosophical problems with prohibiting them.  Same reason why although I personally think abortion is wrong I do think it should be legal.

Did you?

Yes, please see original post.

[Karnewarrior]

That's why I included "and social stresses"

Did you?

It's a forum, so you ought to be able to check.

That's why I included "and social stresses" - I guess I should've put that first.  Because it's not being able to deal with frustration and anger that leads to most violence.  Its social changes that make such extreme actions be the outlet instead of whatever people did in the past.

It's related to how 30 years ago when kids were stressed or mad at their parents they would threaten to run away, but now no kids threaten running away but instead say they're going to commit suicide. Everything has just been suffering from escalation.

Can't we just de-escalate?  I guess maybe you can take away people's toys, but that adds a lot of short-term tension that is likely to have even more escalation in the near-term.

I feel like a big part of why de-escalation is so unpopular nowadays is because the American way of looking at the Prisoner's Dilemma is "fuck you." Heck, most people don't even know what the Prisoner's Dilemma is, and more than a few of those who do seem to be under the impression that the Dilemma in question is "how do we make sure the other guy doesn't snitch so we can get out first?"

This country is one run by greed and wroth. We're so far gone down the rabbit hole we're excising our other sins to make room for more anger and more selfishness.

anger at losing the weapons themselves.

That is what I meant. To avoid massive upheaval, the best bet is to just start teaching kids they don'y need guns, and let all the gun nuts age out.  Kind of like how the whole personal use of cars things is just naturally fading, since for whatever reasons kids just don't have as much interest in driving as we were socially conditioned to 20 years ago.

The problem is that you're going against a mythical beast that's being advocated on both sides of the isle, to varying degrees of ignorance. Guns are a big thing in hollywood too. You're not trying to go against the actual value of a gun, but the myth of the gun itself as a sigil of power and violence.

It's not just NRA brainwashies that are going to be butthurt about that. A lot of liberals will be upset when you take aim at The Punisher and the like, savvy?