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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4467404 times)

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24570 on: October 24, 2018, 02:42:33 pm »

Yeah but those are the people that claim the moon landing was a false flag for alien democrat lizard invasions.

And they're the ones the Quanon faithful (Quanites?) listen to most assiduously precisely because they cast the present conflict in violent terms.

I don't think the present false flag cries are attempts to blame liberals so much as they're trying to claim that all their apocalyptic rhetoric is justified. If liberals are building bombs, running around in gangs beating them with bats is a little more reasonable -- and, critically, so is accepting brazen bigotry and norm erosion as the desperate measures called for by desperate times. This is what happens when people build a movement on other people's emotional distress: eventually, the liberal tears dry up, and then they look like that kid in elementary school who got up on the table in the middle of lunch and screamed "FOOD FIGHT" at the top of their lungs to no effect. Just...not to be taken seriously. (To extend the metaphor, this is them smearing mashed potatoes on their own face before screaming it again.)

And there's nothing that ticks them off more than that.
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Gentlefish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24571 on: October 24, 2018, 02:54:12 pm »

Side note, the Qanon subreddit, r/greatawakening, has been banned. I for one find it hilarious that happened.

misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24572 on: October 24, 2018, 02:59:36 pm »

How can our election be real if our votes aren't real.

Most aren't, at least looking at the house of representatives. Going by the counts for the 2016 congressional elections, 30.1% of votes were wasted on doomed candidates (not including third parties) and 35.8% were wasted as surplus. The votes wasted on third parties were another 4.3%, for around 70.2% total. In other words, 29.8% of the votes nationally decided the outcome, and the other 91 million votes may as well have been sent as emergency relief to victims of hurricanes as toilet paper. Put a third way, 12% of the total population decided what the house would look like.
Questions:
1) Do you necessarily think that voting for a candidate who is a longshot is doomed? How likely does something have to be to be doomed? 1% difference in polling, 5% difference, 10%, 20%, what? Why there and not some other line?
2) Do you think that voting for "doomed" candidates is necessarily "wasted", since it might have additional effects beyond altering the outcome (i.e. "sending a message").
3) You also imply that voting for "surplus" candidates are wasted (which, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, refers to people who voted for people who would have won anyway regardless), which only complicates things further. Is it fair to retroactively say that a candidate was surplus, given that certain elections (Cantor and Ocasio-Cortez) have demonstrated that some of these are only obvious in retrospect?
4) Getting deeper into the central ideas of this post, you imply that voting in an election that is not close is necessarily "wasted." But by definition, this seems silly, since even in very very close elections, the likelihood that you're vote will be the one that affects the outcome (which many political scientists have many measures to calculate with) is miniscule. Thus under your definition not only are "doomed" and "surplus" votes wasted, but in fact all votes are wasted, particularly in retrospect, with the waste only differing in degree. Consider this paper, calculating a roughly 1 in 10 million chance of changing the election. Thus, all votes are roughly 9999999/1000000 waste, and 1/10000000 not wasted.
All of this is just to illustrate that even under a perfect direct democracy, a vote is essentially always a "waste" if only the binary outcome (yes/no) is considered.

Side note, the Qanon subreddit, r/greatawakening, has been banned. I for one find it hilarious that happened.
That's a couple of weeks old now, but it is still as hilarious as the day it happened.
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Gentlefish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24573 on: October 24, 2018, 03:05:32 pm »

I'm guessing it happened during the Grand Quarantine, then? I'm a little out of the loop on Reddit-based politics.

As for those papers, are they all based on FPTP voting systems? How would you imagine the ameripol landscape to change if it were to be tallied as ranked choice for federal elections?

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24574 on: October 24, 2018, 03:13:40 pm »

See, I live in a country where the parliamentary composition is determined by how many votes each particular party gets. So while the Red party still only got 2.4% of the total votes, that was enough for them to increase their number of representatives in parliament by one whole person (and a third). And that one guy has actually made a rather remarkable difference in his historic stint as the first Red representative to actually have a seat in parliament.

So my vote (which, coincidentally, was not for Red. I was just using them/him as an example) did have a more tangible, recognizable impact than one that has no effect unless the majority of all voters happen to agree with me.


Then those minority parties talk with each other and the bigger, popular parties, they come to an agreement, and form a coalition. That coalition counts as one "side" when determining who will take the seat as PM, as determined by which coalition has the most total seats in parliament. Which is why there's a lot of fun stuff currently going on, because one of those minority parties is having something of an identity crisis and will be having a major internal gathering and discussion in November where they will decide whether to stick with their current coalition (which at this point controls the majority and thus the seat of PM), or to defect and switch sides to the other major coalition... Which would flip the majority and eject the current PM in favor of the head of the opposite coalition.

So despite being a little league minority party, they're currently in a position to determine the country's government. And that, I think, is pretty cool.


...even if it is the "Christian People's Party". Ecch.

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24575 on: October 24, 2018, 03:20:24 pm »

Our farthest-right conservative party is called The Progressive Party.

There's also a micro-minority party called The Alliance, who have no desire to make friends with anybody.

Trolldefender99

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24576 on: October 24, 2018, 04:04:57 pm »

This reminds me of a year or two back (don't really remember exact time frame) when someone on the left tried gunning down and murdering a bunch of congress during a golf game or something.

I think its safe to say with terrorist attacks on both sides, that Obama is right and we aren't united and we (the US anyway) are getting further and further apart with how terrible the politics have been. There are entire families breaking apart from being deported, or if a family member disagrees with one another and therefor no longer talking to each other. Obama said we need to unite despite our differences and disagreements, but things like this aren't helping at all.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24577 on: October 24, 2018, 04:07:18 pm »

To be fair, families are entirely capable of dividing and not speaking with each other even without getting politics involved.

Speaking from experience.

Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24578 on: October 24, 2018, 04:20:29 pm »

This reminds me of a year or two back (don't really remember exact time frame) when someone on the left tried gunning down and murdering a bunch of congress during a golf game or something.

You don't even have to go back that far. This happened mere weeks ago:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/10/02/politics/pentagon-ricin-mail/index.html
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24579 on: October 24, 2018, 04:23:10 pm »

Party names can be pretty good. Mauritius currently is led by the "Militant Socialist Movement."
See, now, everyone, that can be initialised as "MSM"!

Not your Mainstream Someotherwordneeded Media!

They say the left can't meme, but the right obviously can't initialise. (c.f. Germany, however many Sonderkraftfahrzeugs they try to bring to the fight.)
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24580 on: October 24, 2018, 04:23:32 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What's critical to see is that the "wasted vote" metric describes votes which do not contribute to electing a representative given an existing distribution of votes that must be counted and divided between a finite number of seats. You're right that this value doesn't have a proportional relationship to a hypothetical probabilistic function of voter power, but what it does describe is the exact underlying mechanic by which the aggregate outcome can differ from the actual proportion of votes, and on top of that it is also the main underlying mechanic that creates the permanent two party system in the US.

The intuitive basis for the significance of those metrics of surplus and doomed votes is best seen by examining why gerrymandering works. The objective of gerrymandering is to group votes in a way that wastes as many of the opponents votes and minimizes the wastage of friendly votes, and in FPTP systems it does this exactly along these "surplus" and "doomed" lines. In particular, any system can be perfectly gerrymandered to "waste" 0% of one party's votes and "waste" 100% of the other party's votes.

One simple edge case is where party A has 51% of the votes and party B has 49% of the votes. Party A can draw their lines in such a way that they win every district and 100% of their opponents' votes are wasted. 100% of B's votes in this case were "doomed" and subsequently "wasted", by my phrasing.

Another case can be imagined where party A has just over 25% of the votes, and party B has the other 75%. If party A gets to draw the lines, they can "pack" as many of B's votes as possible into quarantined districts while ensuring that a few other districts go to A by slim majorities. By doing this, party A can waste none of their votes and win 50% of the seats, while party B will waste 50% of their votes on "surplus" and 50% on "doomed" while winning 50% of the seats. This is why I won't say that there's a strictly proportional relationship here, because B is still guaranteed to get some seats (how many depends on whether the districts must have even populations) and yet still had 100% of their votes "wasted".

The case you're imagining here where only one vote mattered is indeed this case of a perfect "packing", but your argument doesn't recognize the necessary existence of other districts. Conversely, in my uncontrollable impulse to be a dumb edgelord, I overreached a little in implying what this metric means.


In practical terms, in the US 70% of house votes in 2016 were wasted, but what really matters is the outcome. The aggregate composition of the house ends up "roughly" reflecting the national proportion of votes, but only because gerrymandering is imperfect and both teams get their votes wasted. What the metric illustrates however is that this isn't actually a democratic way of doing things, it's a totally perverse system where the system stabilizes to something dependent mostly on accidents of geography (or worse, when they aren't accidents).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 04:27:11 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24581 on: October 24, 2018, 04:39:44 pm »

I'm guessing it happened during the Grand Quarantine, then? I'm a little out of the loop on Reddit-based politics.
SubredditDrama is always the place for internal reddit nonsense.

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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24582 on: October 24, 2018, 04:52:30 pm »

I think you're approaching this issue from a perspective that is way too individualistic. The point isn't that my individual vote that's so precious is wasted (and damn that makes me feel so alone in the universe), it's that the vote of everyone in my party (a party that can't even exist under this system) is always going to be wasted, now and forever. To introduce a bad analogy, it's like arguing that using calculus to compute areas and volumes is bullshit because the individual arbitrarily small components of the sum might as well be zero.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24583 on: October 24, 2018, 05:36:38 pm »

I think votes being "wasted" is bad terminology in this case.

I think everyone understands that their individual vote is of very little consequence, but that everyone contributing their very small part is what generates the collective sum of public influence in politics through voting which does in the end matter very much.

The complaints come from people feeling that their individual vote matters less in the end than someone else's vote.  And that is a very different and real problem, in my opinion, and can look very similar to a vote being "wasted".

For example, if there are no candidates on the ballot who I feel represent my political interests, then my vote might matter the same as everyone else's purely in terms of objectively influencing the result of a contest between the candidates that are on the ballot.  In that aspect I am equal to all other voters who participate.  But in terms of my vote having an influence in the functioning of government that actually matters to me, my vote feels much less powerful than it does for someone who does feel strongly represented by a specific candidate on the ballot.

Or if there is successful voter disenfranchisement among the demographic of people who share my political views.  When I go to vote, my vote will ultimately matter less than the votes of people who weren't disenfranchised, by virtue of my demographic being unable to gather that collective sum of influence through our individual contributions the same as everyone else gets to do.  In a winner-take-all system, it ultimately does mean that our votes were "wasted" because our collective influence into representation that is supposed to be guaranteed by voting was denied.

Etc...
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24584 on: October 24, 2018, 05:38:27 pm »

I think democracy is overrated. What we need is a strong willed dictator that tells people what to think
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