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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4450119 times)

WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24585 on: October 24, 2018, 05:42:43 pm »

"Wasted" votes is actually a technical term. It sounds better than the closely related "efficiency gap", anyway.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24586 on: October 24, 2018, 05:43:50 pm »

Quote
I think you're approaching this issue from a perspective that is way too individualistic.
I'm not. It's just a fact of voting. Whether that fact is important depends on your point of view. Someone who wishes to empower individuals to make decisions in government has a hard life ahead of them. I do not fall into that category, nor do I believe that the rhetorical "Homo Economicus" is either a real being or an ideal I wish to see exist (which makes the point moot except for ultra-rational discussion). I just want a healthy democracy.

The point isn't that my individual vote that's so precious is wasted (and damn that makes me feel so alone in the universe), it's that the vote of everyone in my party (a party that can't even exist under this system) is always going to be wasted, now and forever. To introduce a bad analogy, it's like arguing that using calculus to compute areas and volumes is bullshit because the individual arbitrarily small components of the sum might as well be zero.
I can disagree just as easily. You're imagining some sort of perfect gerrymander, but this is unreal. Federal-level Gerrymanders in this country last for at most 10 years and any demographic changes which occur within that time weaken the gerrymander. People are born, come of age, and die, and opinions shift. The government doesn't have the power to make unlimited districts at any time and that and other "hard" restrictions on gerrymandering (as opposed to "soft" restrictions like court-challenges) impose a hardcap on the degree of successful gerrymandering. Again, you're assuming perfect knowledge of people's political preferences perfect stasis, and perfect freedom to create and shape districts, and yes in that system a party can be completely disenfranchised forever. The current system cannot be gerrymandered to that level and to focus on that is misleading, since it ignores situations where gerrymanders are overcome (which does happen!). Finally, by fixateing on parties, you ignore the specter of so-called "bipartisan gerrymandering", where states are redrawn specifically to defend incumbents. This does not disadvantage either party more or less than it is already ss under the previous system, but there are losers. There are sub-party movements, for example, or bipartisan issues. But this is Devil's advocate stuff here, I agree with you but I see your point as complementary rather than contradictory.

I get the sense that we agree on 90% particulars here (perhaps even 95%), I'm just questioning your rhetorical focus on how votes aren't real, and "wasted" and "surplus" votes given that A) it's very discouraging towards the overall goal of getting people to vote (which is in my mind a Good Thing), and B) even under an ideal system your vote will never really "matter" much anyway, that's just part and parcel of living in a democracy with a lot of people in it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't vote or we shouldn't improve the system, just that the entire exercise of analyzing vote value is fruitless.

I wouldn't even be going on about this if people actually listened to me (outside this forum obviously), because then they'd hear me saying how their vote doesn't matter, which would make them stop voting, which would be a Bad Thing.
-snip-
Salmon's stated it better than I. The only thing I'd add (although it hardly needs to be said) is that people feeling their vote matters less than others is a really, really bad thing for a variety of reasons that I listed much earlier: worse outcomes, less representative decisions (which likely again leads into "worse outcomes", like most of these), more apathy, more injustice, civic disengagement, etc. etc.
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24587 on: October 24, 2018, 05:51:24 pm »

I think democracy is overrated. What we need is a strong willed dictator that tells people what to think
What immaginary conspiracy shall we pin all our troubles on? Communists again?
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24588 on: October 24, 2018, 05:55:48 pm »

I think democracy is overrated. What we need is a strong willed dictator that tells people what to think
What immaginary conspiracy shall we pin all our troubles on? Communists again?

Muslims are pretty played out and Russia only scares the left. It's China or commies.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24589 on: October 24, 2018, 06:21:43 pm »

Russia only scares the left
You're not wrong but... what a weird world we live in.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24590 on: October 24, 2018, 06:54:46 pm »

I think democracy is overrated. What we need is a strong willed dictator that tells people what to think
What immaginary conspiracy shall we pin all our troubles on? Communists again?

Liberals, clearly.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24591 on: October 24, 2018, 07:30:52 pm »

Regarding today's bomb activities...
Quote from: Donald Trump
The media also has a responsibility to set a civil tone and to stop the endless hostility and constant negative and often times false attacks and stories. They have to do it. They have to do it. They have got to stop.

So basically, the fake news deserve to get blown up for badmouthing Trump.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24592 on: October 24, 2018, 07:46:09 pm »

To be fair, families are entirely capable of dividing and not speaking with each other even without getting politics involved.

Speaking from experience.
To quote Jack Handey, "It's sad how families can be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs."
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24593 on: October 24, 2018, 08:51:08 pm »

Quote
I think you're approaching this issue from a perspective that is way too individualistic.
I'm not.

Are too!

Spoiler: Further clever retorts (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 09:04:31 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24594 on: October 25, 2018, 05:56:43 am »

An 8th bomb was mailed to actor Robert De Niro this morning.
At this time none of the bombs have been detonated, suggesting that their purpose is terror rather than actually causing physical harm.

EDIT:
Trump's tweet in response to bomb #8
Quote from: Donald Trump
A very big part of the Anger we see today in our society is caused by the purposely false and inaccurate reporting of the Mainstream Media that I refer to as Fake News. It has gotten so bad and hateful that it is beyond description. Mainstream Media must clean up its act, FAST!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 06:23:52 am by Folly »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24595 on: October 25, 2018, 05:59:29 am »

At some point, the USPS is going to start X-raying packages.  This sending bombs shit is just getting too frequent.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24596 on: October 25, 2018, 07:03:23 am »

Joe Biden has reported receiving a potential 9th mail bomb.

EDIT: Ninth bomb confirmed.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 07:34:48 am by Folly »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24597 on: October 25, 2018, 07:13:07 am »

According to the news this morning, it was mid-addressed, but he was the intended recipient.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24598 on: October 25, 2018, 08:46:08 am »

And yet this is somehow the fault of the recipients according to Trump and the alt right.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
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Rowanas

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24599 on: October 25, 2018, 08:50:09 am »

And yet this is somehow the fault of the recipients according to Trump and the alt right.

Well, look at all the bombable activites of Mr De Niro (got the E and I completely the wrong way round in my head).  He's just getting what he deserves, damnit! /s
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