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[Madman198237]

Note about the nonlethal firearm rounds:

They won't stop someone who doesn't feel the pain. The receiving end of a bullet hit receives somewhat less force than the recoil of the gun that the projectile was fired from, which means that at best you could rock a shoulder back a bit with a shotgun beanbag round or whatever. It's not likely to knock anyone down unless you're a master of gun-fu capable of shooting somebody's leg at the precise right moment to throw it out of place, causing them to miss a step and fall over or something equally insane.

More non-lethal options would be good, but humans are silly, squishy critters with a tendency to complain loudly when you break bones or use other always-effective ways of stopping someone from doing [name of action here]. Ultimately, the only nonlethal option as effective as lethal force is removing the situations that start the fights, entirely. Which is not really feasible for many reasons, I'd expect.

[sluissa]

So, Trump refused to sign a statement of solidarity with the G7 members. Canada says they'll respond with tariffs if Trump puts his in place. Trump and his people go all "You backstabbed us! You made us look weak before North Korea!" And pulled some 270% Canadian tariff for dairy number out of his ass. A number which, sounds bad without context, but given that there's a massive quota that flows north duty free first, most of which is US government subsidized and thus has the price driven lower than domestic Canadian businesses can compete with makes the tariff make sense.

[MrRoboto75]

but

her emails

[Trekkin]

Mind, he's also said that there should be no tariffs at all, threatened to stop all trade between the US and the rest of the G7, and brought up readmitting Russia.

So it doesn't sound great in context either, that context being our increasingly deranged president emitting apparently random noises to try to get the grown-ups to stop ignoring him.

The Singapore summit will be great.

[hector13]

Yeah, I thought the steel + aluminium tariffs were for national security issues rather than a petty response to Canada protecting part of their agricultural industry from collapsing under the pressure of foreign competition, which in itself is probably something of a national security consideration.

There are no words to convey how stupid this situation is. I mean his campaign is being investigated for colluding with Russia, so he goes further out of his way to publicly buddy up to Russia while simultaneously alienating long-time allies and trading partners, shortly before he meets with another mad bastard without preparing for it, a few weeks after telling them to fuck off.

There are Hollywood writers that aren’t this creative for crying out loud!

[Frumple]

Yeah, I thought the steel + aluminium tariffs were for national security issues rather than a petty response to Canada protecting part of their agricultural industry from collapsing under the pressure of foreign competition, which in itself is probably something of a national security consideration.

That was the excuse given, anyway. Wouldn't be surprised if some poor bastard of a lawcritter that has to consider the defensive legal side of the mess tore some hair out in response to this latest round of unthinking shitespew. Possibly not their own. Hard to keep the national security angle going when someone's undermining it in front of pretty close to literally the entire world.

[wierd]

So, regardless of who runs in 2 years, I have a slogan for them.


Solving problems?
--Yes, we've got em!
Don't be a chump,
Dump the Trump!

(With apologies to the creators of CatDog.)

[Sheb]

Yeah, pretty much. WTO rules prevent countries from randomly imposing tariffs, but do provide an exception for national security. That's why the US is now investigating whether the import of cars is a threat to national security. The steel tariffs stuck to the letter of the law even if they ran circle around the spirit, as you can kinda make an argument for it. The cars stuff is just egregious.

But the smart/devious thing about it is that it places allies in a bind. If they object and appeal to the WTO, they would be asking an international organization to rule about what is and what isn't in the national security interest of the United States, which isn't great optics, or a good precedent either.

P.S. I can't wait for Shazbot's explanation of why agreeing to a communique then revoking it by tweet ten minutes after its published is the good way for the US to regain its allies' trust.

[smjjames]

The only problem is that the exception was assuming that calling tariffs over national security would be called over legit reasons. Past presidents were mindful of evoking it because precedent, but I guess nobody expected the POTUS, of all people, to be the one to not give a damn and use it for completely BS reasons.

Anyways, the Trump admin went and completely offended Canada, I mean, you guys take a lot of flak from the US sometimes and you tolerate quite a bit, so, you’d have to be a complete and utter jerk to get the Canadian government that angry.

Also, Sheb, I believe that’s their entire goal, to break the WTO so that it no longer functions.

[Sheb]

Also, Sheb, I believe that’s their entire goal, to break the WTO so that it no longer functions.

Oh, yeah. And in a way, the move is brilliant: Trump rails against the rule-based trade system. By seeming to at least respect the letter of the rule, he puts the other in a bind: to retaliate, they might have to break the rules they want to defend.

[wierd]

In a twisted way-- this resembles his "Abuse bankruptcy" strategies...

[Starver]

(So, does UK have to fall back to WTO before or after Trump destroys it? Not that he'll care. Probably now wants to make it an aim. However, main point is...)

Spoiler: Interesting, if true (click to show/hide)

And I'd like to see an Import version, and (naturally) a version that enumerates net balance.

[EnigmaticHat]

That's the thing, I feel like the less-lethal alternatives available today are simply not up to snuff regarding their reliability in neutralizing an immediate threat, and their safety of use.

Tasers, particularly pistol tasers with the electrodes fired over range, are horribly unreliable when you start getting down to brass tacks. It wouldn't surprise me if their main use was just through the reputation of electroshock weapons, as a deterrent for those who don't want to be on the receiving end of an actually successful strike.

Pepper spray has its own problems, such as making accuracy, making sure the wind won't fuck you up, and hoping that the other guy isn't wearing a mask. Or, heck, even just some goggles to take the main bite out of it. Not to mention the logistical issues of making sure the pressurized contents are all in prime condition, at all times, without having to use up supplies by testing them...

Rubber bullets and bean bag slugs can be effective and are less prone to people simply being immune (even a drugged up looney tune will at least get slowed down/pushed back by the force, despite potentially not feeling anything), and they're only slightly prone to malfunction, but they're just not really safe to use. There are numerous cases of severe and even fatal injuries caused by getting a "less-lethal" projectile in the wrong place.


Personally though, I feel that this is a call to make better less-lethal options, rather than to use more traditional firearms. Remember that lethal guns have had an incredible amount of time and money put into refining and perfecting their function, while the less killy alternatives didn't get nearly as much love or government funding.

Less lethal weapons have similar problems as firearms is the thing.  A taser is as effective as a gun for a murder weapon (since you can just kill the person after stunning them).  Additionally the expectation of lesser damage to the target/less legal consequences might lead an untrained user to attack someone where they might not with a gun.  So you still need background checks and lessons.  Of course people being armed with less lethal weapons is far better than guns; if nothing else, you can't go on a murder spree with a taser.

The truth of the matter is violence is violence and you shouldn't use less lethal weapons unless you'd be willing to beat someone up with your fists, cause its about as rude.  Most of the weapons we're talking about are far worse than they sound.  For example the ADS basically makes people feel like their skin is on fire; AFAIK its never been used in the field because the only version they have is crowd sized and someone might get knocked down in the target area.  Likewise rubber bullets against an unarmored target can break bones if aimed anywhere other than the torso.  Pepper spray was marketed in the US as something for women to defend themselves from predators so AFAIK most criminals/idiots are too macho to use it, but its a pretty nasty substance.  From what I've heard its like poison ivy x10.  All less lethal weapons, even when used properly, can kill or cause permanent damage if someone has existing health conditions or is too young/old.

Its off topic but a while back Russia tried to invent video game sleep gas.  They used it on a building full of hostages and a bunch of them fell unconscious, then choked on their vomit and died.  In real life knocking people unconscious is a very bad idea if their health is a priority.

[wierd]

(So, does UK have to fall back to WTO before or after Trump destroys it? Not that he'll care. Probably now wants to make it an aim. However, main point is...)

Spoiler: Interesting, if true (click to show/hide)

And I'd like to see an Import version, and (naturally) a version that enumerates net balance.

We can easily make one.  Census.gov has the data.

Here is KS, for example.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/state/data/imports/ks.html

Or MO.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/state/data/imports/mo.html

Or even TX
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/state/data/imports/tx.html

Basically, just change the state abr. on the end of the URL, and get your data.

[Starver]

While I know I'm capable of doing the legwork (and, on my home machine, creating all the fancy graphics I could want, probably by Perling elements of a handy .SVG map template of the US, exporting to .PNG, or stacking them for a transitioning .GIF movie, which means I could also dynamically vector-resize states to represent populations or other quantities), this is one instance where I was more musing about being spoonfed a pretty picture to similarly muse over.

I'd like to see the other things I mentioned, but too much effort on the road. Ditto, I could check to see "if true" that Nevada seemingly mostly exports (clock cuckoos?) to Switzerland. I'll maybe check that one item out, once I remember if they're NE, NV, ND or whatever, along with s/imp/exp/ on the URI. (edit: apparently not available/not allowable at that swapped address, maybe rooting around will discover the right one, but not right now. And it's NV.)