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[Doomblade187]

You literally cannot trust our police/security forces with even pepper spray.

Well, pepper spray results in fewer fatalities than batons and fists.

[Dunamisdeos]

You literally cannot trust our police/security forces with even pepper spray.

Well, pepper spray results in fewer fatalities than batons and fists.

This is a valid point.

[SalmonGod]

Who would have thought shooting electricity thought people could be dangerous?

It is when they're not responding to commands because they're already suffering some sort of medical episode and the cops are trained to not to question these things and just interpret anything less than immediate worship as belligerence to be responded to by force.

Or when they taze somebody continually for minutes, because.... I don't know.  Can't think of anything but sadism, there.

[Greiger]

So while trying to find out what the weather was doing I found out on the news that Trump has given himself the power to pardon himself?  Is that right or did I misunderstand?  That sounds like obvious 'I'm above the law' shit right there and I'm astounded there isn't rioting in the streets right now, so I had to have misunderstood.

[hector13]

He’s been saying he has the absolute power to pardon himself but that he won’t, ‘cause he’s done nothin wrong.

This is basically the same as telling Mueller he’s wasting his time with the investigation because whatever the conclusion, it won’t matter.

[sluissa]

It's one of those things that's sort of untested, but could be dealt with if done carefully. If you impeach him or wait until he's out of office before bringing charges, or bring charges in a state court rather than federal court, then he can't pardon himself. Even if you don't do it that way, there's arguments that he couldn't pardon himself, but at the same time no strict rule saying he can't either except in the case of impeachment (which is why you'd want to do that first)

[Greiger]

Ah ok, so it's just him saying 'oh I'll just pardon myself if you do find something illegal I did'.  Still concerning, but just more trump.   I was thinking if that was something he could do Bill Clinton, Nixon, and Johnson would have done it first.

[UristMcChladni]

Ah ok, so it's just him saying 'oh I'll just pardon myself if you do find something illegal I did'.  Still concerning, but just more trump.   I was thinking if that was something he could do Bill Clinton, Nixon, and Johnson would have done it first.

It's even less interesting than that. It's not even clear if legally he could be indicted with anything. Presidents are usually approached as uncharged co-conspirators, and then it's left to the impeachment process. I think the DOJ stance has for a long time been that he can't be indicted, so saying he can pardon himself is kinda silly. Almost as silly as when he said he'd pardon Mohammad Ali. Who was found innocent.

[misko27]

It's legally untested, and arguably terrifying. In practice, it would come down to either an emergency Supreme Court decision, or Congress. Probably Congress, but I'd put the odds of getting a Decision at at least one in three.

In any case, it's dangerous ground. If he was impeached, the precedent would be set that its illegal. If he's not... well, Trump pardoning himself is one of the very few things I live in legitimate fear of. There'd be violence on the streets, and hell, I'd probably be one of them. And I'm virtually an establishment shill, so that's terrifying.

[UristMcChladni]

It's legally untested, and arguably terrifying. In practice, it would come down to either an emergency Supreme Court decision, or Congress. Probably Congress, but I'd put the odds of getting a Decision at at least one in three.

In any case, it's dangerous ground. If he was impeached, the precedent would be set that its illegal. If he's not... well, Trump pardoning himself is one of the very few things I live in legitimate fear of. There'd be violence on the streets, and hell, I'd probably be one of them. And I'm virtually an establishment shill, so that's terrifying.

Pardoning himself of what though? I think this whole conversation is pretty nebulous, because he probably can't be charged. The was it's set up right now, it all comes down to the impeachment process.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There are basically two ways of looking at the vagueries of pardons and impeachments: The sane way, and the crazy way.

The sane way is that the President is by necessity barred from normal prosecution while they hold office and granted the ability to pardon crimes for the greater good. To compensate for this Congress is granted the right to impeach the President, which is explicitly not covered by pardon powers. If so impeached, the President is then no longer the President and can be prosecuted for their crimes, if such a severe scenario were to come to pass.

The crazy way is that pardon powers are the playground "you can't touch me!" of the Presidency, and so when the President does it it isn't illegal so long as they remember to shout "Pardon!" whenever they do something illegal like Elizabeth Swann or a Tribune of the Plebs. Thus if the President pardons themselves for their crimes Congress can only choose to impeach them for no reason, and can't prosecute them afterwards because they're still pardoned. The impeachment system was, of course, only implemented due to the Founders' well-documented hatred of people who didn't remember to shout "anti-Loyalist shield!" during the revolution.

[Dunamisdeos]

so long as they remember to shout "Pardon!" whenever they do something illegal like Elizabeth Swann or a Tribune of the Plebs.

Ok look I'm sorry but

[Frumple]

The pres is already explicitly not barred from normal prosecution while they're in office, MSH. Far as I can recall, clinton made that blatant and nixon almost did.

They're protected from some things if and only if said things are performed as part of their duties as POTUS, but that's about as far as it goes.

E: Though yeah, it was either trump or rudy or both that claimed trump can pardon himself. The claim is utter bullshit and whoever claimed it was talking out their ass.

[sluissa]

The pres is already explicitly not barred from normal prosecution while they're in office, MSH. Far as I can recall, clinton made that blatant and nixon almost did.

They're protected from some things if and only if said things are performed as part of their duties as POTUS, but that's about as far as it goes.

Pretty sure Clinton never actually pushed it all the way. Before they could push the subpoena to a court decision, he agreed to a deposition as a "meet in the middle" thing and they went along with that rather than test it in the courts.

[Frumple]

... wasn't that nixon? Hell, could have been both. Too tired at the mo' to double check right now. Pretty damn sure there actually was a court decision vis a vis clinton, though, though it's possible I'm misremembering what was involved in it.