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[wierd]

You *ARE* aware that the US spends more money on its military apparatus than the next 3 countries COMBINED, right?

The bigger question--- Do we really need to spend that much, to sustain our national security?  (I would say the answer is no. No we dont. We dont need to keep inventing ever more horrible machines, designed exclusively to kill as many people, as quickly as is possible, without violating treaties.  Not if we are actually a peaceful country that is not actively making enemies of the rest of the world with our bullshit anway... Ooopss.. there I did it-- exposed the real reason we expend so much on the military!)

[alway]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/ice-denaturalization-naturalized-citizen-immigration/
Na, ICE also goes after naturalized citizens, strips them of citizenship, and deports them. So often they even have a handbook on how to most efficiently do so.

[wierd]

I would say a good solution to this problem is a simple process requirement:

Before you can deport, you MUST get the country you are deporting *TO* to acknowledge citizenship of the person being deported.

In the case of naturalized US citizens, their foreign citizenship status would often be rescinded (dual citizenship is not as common as people tend to think, since there are requirements to getting US citizenship, which often involves renouncing, formally, foreign citizenship.), meaning that asking the proposed "drop off" country would result in a "Nope, not ours any more." response pretty much all the fucking time, and this is by design.  People that are here illegally, would have a "Yup, totally ours-- we have citizenship documents on file that are active for this person." response.

Remember, sending people to another country where they are not citizens thereof, is the same as forcefully exporting people to that country illegally--- EG, in this case, ICE is actively involved in the business of transporting illegal migrants to countries that do not want them.

Just imagine if Mexico did something like this, and started sending people it did not like to the US border en-mass.  I am fairly certain it would not be popular. Why does our country think this is a good idea? Because we are fucking pretentious asshole morons, that's why.

[smjjames]

Yes, I *AM* aware of how much the US spends on military.

Of course, there’s also the thing about being a world superpower which isn’t a throne that is easily gotten off of.

[wierd]

Oh, we *WILL* get off that throne.

Either voluntarily, because we are smarter than all the ones that preceded us--- OR, involuntarily, like all the others that preceded us-- as we collapse under the weight of the financial and social problems it imposes on us, and we can no longer endure.


At this rate, it looks like we are headed for collapse, rather than being smart, and stepping aside.

[Frumple]

Asylum-seekers are handled differently, these are people trying to improve their own finances by working for less than is legal, off the books.  That almost entirely helps the rich and corporations who hire them, slightly helps themselves, and is done at the expense of actual citizens (including legal immigrants!!)

It's persistently a net economic boon, and their stress on public services are notably less than citizens or documented immigrants, rol. As well as being a boon they're willing to uproot their lives and then risk life and limb for.* By and large it ain't costing us shit except for the abuses coming out the companies exploiting it, and it damn sure ain't our enforcement efforts that are improving the situation on that front. Rather the opposite, 'cause I guaran-damn-tee you those folks like little more than a prospective employee unwilling to go to the cops or lawyer up for a wage dispute.

If our asylum seeker system was itself worth a shit, we'd have solid reason to mention it, but, y'know, like other parts of our immigration system it ain't worth near as much as it damn well should be. Maybe could be without the anti-immigration folks doing everything they can manage to fuck immigration legal and otherwise, but that ain't what we're dealing with right now.

The exploited population ain't who we should be shitting on, here, basically, even if they are fitting into below table economies (not that that shit isn't plenty common elsewhere, yet oddly no one seems to raise a fuss about it). They're neither the primary cause, nor is what they're doing morally questionable (well, unless you're on board with pissing on the however many times great grandparents of what's close enough to the entire country it barely matters, or chunks of our country's citizenship, too), particularly to any extent worth a damn.

Shit on what's making things bad enough they're seeing cause to leave, shit on the businesses giving incentive to come (or hell, figure out a way to make it less attractive for the employers in question, preferably without causing everything else involved to come out worse), shit on the people making it a nightmare to come legally, and so on. Once all that mess is dealt with, folks still trying to dig through holes can be something to fling the next round of shit at.

* This, incidentally, is the heroic bit, to the extent anything is. It's considered that because it's seriously the exact goddamn thing most of our ancestors did, or close enough the only people it matters to are those actively trying to shit on people doing what they think is their damnedest to improve the lives of them and/or their family.

[smjjames]

Stepping aside means others will fill that power vacuum (obviously) and were already seeing the consequences of even the very minor disengagement (also mistakes from past administrations) that Trump is applying.

[wierd]

Inter-regency is always a problem.

Here's a proposal;

The US says "look, our military spending is a cancer that is killing us. We can prove this on both cultural and financial levels. We cannot endure. The option where the US runs the show forever is not on the table. From our perspective, we have 2 choices; step aside, and let the rest of the world manage its own affairs-- or we keep doing what we are doing now, and collapse like the soviet union did.  From our perspective, we feel the first choice is the most reasonable, and we offer you-- the rest of the world, time to figure out what you want to do, and who you want to run things, as long as it is NOT US. We can no longer do it. The alternative is for you to do nothing, prepare for nothing, and for us to suddenly and completely implode, and for the world to go insane in the power vaccuum while none of you are able to respond to it. We feel that it is in your best interests, as well as ours, to take the first option as well. So, we present you with this time to decide--- Who, and How."

Then, when the world has decided, step aside, and accept the brave new world.

[Maximum Spin]

I have very rarely found cases in history where nations have found success assuming other nations are reasonable.

[wierd]

They NEVER are.

That is why I said I forsee the US's collapse as the most likely result.

I DO NOT forsee a situation where the US stays the dominant world superpower forever and ever. The economic and social problems plaguing our country TODAY have traceable roots to this as a primary causal factor, and those problems are terminal if not addressed.

Regardless of which way it goes, there will be an inter-regency. Which kind?  That depends on how sane the world really is, now doesn't it.

[Maximum Spin]

They NEVER are.

Well, yes, but my point is rather that we can probably prepare better for the event than to just publically announce our retirement and tell the known-unreasonable nations that we're afraid they'll just have to make do.

Perhaps we could groom one of our allies for the position. Uh, one we don't like *so* much.

[wierd]

Currently, China is poised to take the throne.

They are the only other country with enough industrial and financial capability to satisfy the requirements.  For many uncountable reasons, this is not a good choice for the rest of the world.

This ultimatum would be a good wake up call for the sleepy countries of the world-- Do you want China running the show?  That is where the world is currently headed. Act now. We will give you the keys to the kingdom, if you can get an alternative platform up and running before we implode. Act now, time is short.


@Ipsil--

There is a reason I said "Before they die of old age" when I was discussing the current state of legal immigration.

[smjjames]

No empire (or superpower, be it regional or global) lasts forever, that’s true, but some can last a heck of a long time. Barring some sort of economic castastrophe, the USs decline will probably be a long and slow one. Empire collapse need not mean complete death though, there’s always the possibility of reinventing itself and rising from the ashes.

They NEVER are.

Well, yes, but my point is rather that we can probably prepare better for the event than to just publically announce our retirement and tell the known-unreasonable nations that we're afraid they'll just have to make do.

Perhaps we could groom one of our allies for the position. Uh, one we don't like *so* much.

In this minor, mostly diplomatic rather than military, withdrawal, we are already seeing Europe try to flex diplomatic muscles they haven’t used in decades or even a few centuries.

Currently, China is poised to take the throne.

They are the only other country with enough industrial and financial capability to satisfy the requirements.  For many uncountable reasons, this is not a good choice for the rest of the world.

This ultimatum would be a good wake up call for the sleepy countries of the world-- Do you want China running the show?  That is where the world is currently headed. Act now. We will give you the keys to the kingdom, if you can get an alternative platform up and running before we implode. Act now, time is short.


@Ipsil--

There is a reason I said "Before they die of old age" when I was discussing the current state of legal immigration.

China is certainly taking advantage of the vacuum, no doubt about that, but they too have their own problems to overcome.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

My take is there's not going to be a throne once enough time passes for the US to decline or collapse. I've said it before, but I think the period in history we most resemble is immediately before the Industrial Revolution. Everything about our current systems the world over is corroded and insufficient, but people are still trying to stick with it. Everyone is playing spy games, everyone is in crippling debt, everyone has trouble managing their economies, everyone is consistently failing to satisfy their public.

We're going to leap out of bland neoliberal corporate stasis into...something. Hopefully something more along the lines of Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism than Facebook Invictus. Regardless, the current system will be invalidated. The US will win if the US makes the leap first, as will whomever makes the leap first. An advantage on the level of British industry verses all the farmers in the world.

[wierd]

I would say the US is already in decline;  The very catchphrase of our current idiot in the oval office basically confirms this.

How can you "Make America Great Again", if it has not gone into decline?


Why do enough people believe this, that they elected a moron with a fake tan?  Well--- Social and wealth inequality have made tremendous backslides in recent decades, as wealth and power becomes ever more concentrated, government becomes less and less concerned with the lay citizenry, and more and more concerned with the plutocracy--- leading to mass disenfranchisement and decay in social order. (See parallel-- decline of Rome, many decades before its eventual collapse. There is a REASON the vandals were able to sack Rome.) That's a start. There are others, but that is a major one.