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[smjjames]

The illegal immigration is also a symptom of problems with the legal immigration system. It just takes so long or it's so ardous that it's easier to just immigrate illegally than it is to immigrate legally.

Heck, Ispil has said of his own experiences with it.

The most obvious solution would be to make legal immigration easier, or at least worth the wait, but the Republicans don't want that.

[redwallzyl]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

No no, we're literally nazis now
I agree that legal immigration needs to be expanded, but I'm always amazed at the popular support for illegal immigrants.  People who cut in line, started their lives here by breaking the law.  Even DACA, which I do support, is basically "Well, they held their own childrens' lives hostage...  Lets back down."  Because it's better to help the children, even if it rewards those parents.

Immigration is really good for America, illegal immigration is bad and only supports the corporations and rich, yet the left insists it's heroic.

The immigration system is both broken and working but in different ways. from a does this actually work and should we keep throwing money at the border perspective no. somewhere between 92 and 98 percent of people who want to get into the illegally US will. In addition yet more border rhetoric will only increase the abuse of people, death, rape, excreta, from the existence of the system that actively encourage illegal immigration that is literally a economic imperative for many US businesses and by extension for immigrants who seek escape from poverty and violence. The border even has areas deliberately designed to get people killed and their bodies disappear. US border policy does absolutely noting to increase the prosperity of the US. What it does is provide a constant source of propaganda and money into contractors pockets.

The system is broken so I don't give a flying fuck about the broken laws associated with it. Fix the system then you can justify the laws. We did this to Latin America and we created the system.

[Frumple]

I wonder if the NRA would support arming Hispanics in LA? After all, an armed populace is the only safeguard against government tyranny, or so I've been told.

Eh, if they're anything like their predecessors giving minorities guns might actually be the fastest way to get them to support gun control :V

[wierd]

I wonder if the NRA would support arming Hispanics in LA? After all, an armed populace is the only safeguard against government tyranny, or so I've been told.

Eh, if they're anything like their predecessors giving minorities guns might actually be the fastest way to get them to support gun control :V

Catch-22.

The second amendment applies to CITIZENS. Not Aliens. Aliens with guns are "insurgents" and "terrorists."

[Frumple]

Hell W, just give them to citizens so they can resist harassment and tyranny from friggin' ICE and the wannabe jackbooted thugs that infest parts of it. You'd still be looking at even odds of an impressively quick 180 by NRA's shite spewers, if history decides to repeat itself.

[wierd]

Oh, of that I have no doubt.

The 2nd amendment is just a convenient talking point for the NRA, which really exists to ensure gun sales don't stop.

Actually facilitating the armed resistance of the populace against the federal government, due to the latter's failure to address grievances posted to them via lawful processes, (as per some interpretations of the second amendment, such as those put forth in the Federalist Papers) would be a great way to get those businesses shut down by government---- so naturally, the likes of the NRA would backpedal very quickly if that were the case.

[RedKing]

I wonder if the NRA would support arming Hispanics in LA? After all, an armed populace is the only safeguard against government tyranny, or so I've been told.

Eh, if they're anything like their predecessors giving minorities guns might actually be the fastest way to get them to support gun control :V

Catch-22.

The second amendment applies to CITIZENS. Not Aliens. Aliens with guns are "insurgents" and "terrorists."

Solution: Strip everyone of their citizenship. BAM. Now all the armed population are terrorists. And we know what to do to terrorists.

Sad part is, that seems like as potentially feasible a solution as anything else at this point. I'm long past the point of hoping anything will ever change. We still haven't banned bump stocks after Vegas, we haven't enacted any kind of gun control legislation after Republican Congressmen themselves were the targets. Even self-preservation instincts are no match for NRA dollars.

[misko27]

They could shoot the President and they'd find a way to say "But if only a good guy with a gun had been there! #ArmThePrez"

[Folly]

An AR-15 is not for hunting. It's for killing.

Same thing.
But it's nice to know right now that Florida's senator supports enabling psychopaths to hunt school students. It's fine as long as we don't call it killing, right?

[smjjames]

An AR-15 is not for hunting. It's for killing.

Same thing.
But it's nice to know right now that Florida's senator supports enabling psychopaths to hunt school students. It's fine as long as we don't call it killing, right?

Isn't that the opposite of what Sen. Bill Nelson said? The quoted statement doesn't sound like what you're claiming.

[redwallzyl]

They could shoot the President and they'd find a way to say "But if only a good guy with a gun had been there! #ArmThePrez"

Spoiler: Implying that they aren't already (click to show/hide)

[wierd]

See the quip I gave Frumple earlier.

Posted by: Frumple
« on: Today at 12:42:09 pm »



Hell W, just give them to citizens so they can resist harassment and tyranny from friggin' ICE and the wannabe jackbooted thugs that infest parts of it. You'd still be looking at even odds of an impressively quick 180 by NRA's shite spewers, if history decides to repeat itself.

Posted by: wierd
« on: Today at 12:45:39 pm »

Oh, of that I have no doubt.

The 2nd amendment is just a convenient talking point for the NRA, which really exists to ensure gun sales don't stop.

Actually facilitating the armed resistance of the populace against the federal government, due to the latter's failure to address grievances posted to them via lawful processes, (as per some interpretations of the second amendment, such as those put forth in the Federalist Papers) would be a great way to get those businesses shut down by government---- so naturally, the likes of the NRA would backpedal very quickly if that were the case.

EG-- The NRA, and its backers, are interested in selling a lucrative item to idiots (people who think the federalist papers' view on the second amendment is a commandment from god or something, never mind that the US military has weapons that are practically out of startrek these days, and the little rifles and handguns they buy are just a nuisance to such groups, making the idea absurd from the start), as long as they can control the narrative. Should they stop controlling the narrative (EG, people do indeed go off the deep end en-mass, and they cannot spindoctor it) then they will 180 their position instantly, because they are wholly dependent upon the US government permitting their operations.

The US Government (and many state governments, sadly) have perverse incentives at play.  The increase in violent crime among citizens justifies the increased armament of law enforcement (which generates demand for product from gear manufacturers... such as gun manufacturers, and the military industrial complex, see further in) , which directly translates into an increased rate of crime against the state (because people hate that fucking shit), which directly translates into an increased need to erode citizen rights on property and privacy (gotta stop those dangerous criminals!! You dont want to be soft on crime, DO YOU CITIZEN!?)-- which translates into an increased need for the military industrial complex (We gotta arm our police in fucking military gear, because of how violent things are now, dont you know!), which then translates into increased porkbarrel for the industrial complex, which in the case of state governments, means increased money circulating in their economies because the government contractors are the major employers....  etc.

Basically Increased violence == increased jobs in the state.

Increased jobs == increased tax revenue

Increased tax revenue == increased discretionary spending

and that of course, means "I get more of my pet projects started."

What the US really needs to do, is re-evaluate how wise it is to have the military industrial complex be one of the single biggest parts of its economy, because it is driving some very very unpleasant trends in its attempts at growth and expansion.

[Rolan7]

No no, we're literally nazis now
I agree that legal immigration needs to be expanded, but I'm always amazed at the popular support for illegal immigrants.  People who cut in line, started their lives here by breaking the law.  Even DACA, which I do support, is basically "Well, they held their own childrens' lives hostage...  Lets back down."  Because it's better to help the children, even if it rewards those parents.

Immigration is really good for America, illegal immigration is bad and only supports the corporations and rich, yet the left insists it's heroic.

And probably will until many of them stop coming from desperate situations (often enough caused in no small part due to how we fucked over wherever they came from, of course) and we unfuck our massively fucked up immigration system.

Asylum-seekers are handled differently, these are people trying to improve their own finances by working for less than is legal, off the books.  That almost entirely helps the rich and corporations who hire them, slightly helps themselves, and is done at the expense of actual citizens (including legal immigrants!!)
It's not heroic, it's scabbing.  It weakens our bargaining position as employees.

And the fact that our rich and corporations are partly to blame for their situation doesn't make it okay, it makes it even more messed up.

[wierd]

No no, we're literally nazis now
I agree that legal immigration needs to be expanded, but I'm always amazed at the popular support for illegal immigrants.  People who cut in line, started their lives here by breaking the law.  Even DACA, which I do support, is basically "Well, they held their own childrens' lives hostage...  Lets back down."  Because it's better to help the children, even if it rewards those parents.

Immigration is really good for America, illegal immigration is bad and only supports the corporations and rich, yet the left insists it's heroic.

And probably will until many of them stop coming from desperate situations (often enough caused in no small part due to how we fucked over wherever they came from, of course) and we unfuck our massively fucked up immigration system.

Asylum-seekers are handled differently, these are people trying to improve their own finances by working for less than is legal, off the books.  That almost entirely helps the rich and corporations who hire them, slightly helps themselves, and is done at the expense of actual citizens (including legal immigrants!!)
It's not heroic, it's scabbing.  It weakens our bargaining position as employees.

And the fact that our rich and corporations are partly to blame for their situation doesn't make it okay, it makes it even more messed up.

That there are whole industrial bases that are wholly dependent upon such practices, and that the abuse of such labor has infected H1B (originally intended to bring people like Albert Einstein into the country, not diploma-mill generated "tech people" who cannot actually do the job) to the point where mass replacements are going on because "Cheaper labor! YUMMY!" is pretty indicative of how capitalism has gone rampant in this country, and why we need to say a big "FUCK YOU" to regan-era deregulation, and go back to having strong regulations, strong oversight, and strong protections in this country.

Oh, but that would be "devastating" to industry, or some shit.


To be perfectly clear on my position:

We *DO* need to have proper border enforcement.
BUT-- To do that, we need PROPER IMMIGRATION INFRASTRUCTURE.  EG, we have to gut the clusterfuck we currently have, and implement an actually working immigration system that actually allows migrants to enter the country legally before they die of old age.

[smjjames]

@wierd: Would it be possible to sustain the military we do now without the military-industrial complex? I know both have their origin after WWII, but I’m wondering if it’s needed for the current stuff.