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[sluissa]

Even when they arent shut down, protests do nothing. In fact it's easier to just keep the media locked out of showing protests than it is to actually stop the protests. Generally more effective too.

[Baffler]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

[Loud Whispers]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

Dude fuck having laws and borders and shit. Though if you ask me it's all the fault of your law dudes tbh. What I mean is that Americans who travel abroad are used to traveling wherever they want to without any legal process, cos the US passport is bretty good. Thus they do not have any knowledge of any other country's border enforcement, because borders do not apply to Americans, therefore the same Americans do not think migration laws apply in America, because they have never in their lives experienced any such entity.

[wierd]

The methodology is all wrong. Ends do not justify means.

The CORRECT way to go about reinstating ICE requirements is this:

1) Revise immigration and Naturalization so that it is not self-funded, and purposefully crippled, so that people who seek citizenship can get it, quickly.
2) Prioritize illegal resident citizenship paperwork over migrant paperwork.
3) provide a 10 year window to address the backlog, (but DO identify people who are illegal, just take no physical action against them aside from issue the ultimatum)
4) After the window has transpired, require all illegal residents that have not attained citizenship to either give a VERY good explanation for why they did not-- (and provide appropriate action based on investigation-- including deportation for persons found to have no legitimate reason for refusing to file.)
5) From that point forward, practice proactive ICE enforcement.

Given the astounding number of persons in the US who would eagerly become citizens, pay taxes, and contribute meaningfully to society legally--- who are obstructed from doing so because of decades of absurd policy decisions from Washington, we cannot just jump straight to item 5, no matter how much Trump and Pals wants to. Doing so is fucking retarded, AND evil.

[Frumple]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

this is ICE we're talking here, ten bucks they actually are nabbing up and trying and/or managing to kick out hispanic citizens

... also pretty sure a lot of what Teh Hitler did was enforcing the law, too, for what that's worth.

[Doomblade187]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

this is ICE we're talking here, ten bucks they actually are nabbing up and trying and/or managing to kick out hispanic citizens

... also pretty sure a lot of what Teh Hitler did was enforcing the law, too, for what that's worth.

There are recorded incidents of ICE deporting citizens.

[wierd]

Not surprising. Any sufficiently large bureaucracy will have clusterfucks like that.

The question is-- is it happening because of systemic, and or, malicious biases?

EG, did ICE just incorrectly determine that a person's citizenship paperwork were forgeries---- OR-- did they just not care if it was legit or not, and just decided to ignore?

[Reelya]

That's the thing I said when Trump was running. In order to catch illegals, they need police powers to spy on everyone. Otherwise, how are they to identify who is illegal? That's why anyone feeling smug that the government is going to "round up" some other group is a fool: they need the legal power to mess with everyone in order to identify who is illegal: "papers, please".

Also, i'll bet you money that some ICE officers are out there somewhere raping illegal immigrant women and children because they have the power to have them deported. That sort of power over women with children will always be exploited.

[Baffler]

The methodology is all wrong. Ends do not justify means.

The CORRECT way to go about reinstating ICE requirements is this:

1) Revise immigration and Naturalization so that it is not self-funded, and purposefully crippled, so that people who seek citizenship can get it, quickly.
2) Prioritize illegal resident citizenship paperwork over migrant paperwork.
3) provide a 10 year window to address the backlog, (but DO identify people who are illegal, just take no physical action against them aside from issue the ultimatum)
4) After the window has transpired, require all illegal residents that have not attained citizenship to either give a VERY good explanation for why they did not-- (and provide appropriate action based on investigation-- including deportation for persons found to have no legitimate reason for refusing to file.)
5) From that point forward, practice proactive ICE enforcement.

Given the astounding number of persons in the US who would eagerly become citizens, pay taxes, and contribute meaningfully to society legally--- who are obstructed from doing so because of decades of absurd policy decisions from Washington, we cannot just jump straight to item 5, no matter how much Trump and Pals wants to. Doing so is fucking retarded, AND evil.

This never works in practice. What you have is points 1 through 3 going through, then the political will runs out and points 4 and 5 never happen. Just look at California, where an amnesty was promised, along with tough rules against employers who hire illegals and a strengthening of border security, to be the solution to what was a crisis level problem even then. Ronald Reagan himself went to bat for this bill. And yet people complaining about the cost, employers complaining about the added responsibilities, and opportunists trying to court the 3 million new voters now in the pipeline stripped the bill down until the border security bits were gone completely and the sanctions against businesses were toothless. I have absolutely no faith at all that the exact same thing wouldn't happen again now, whether it's straight up amnesty that's on the table or reforms like you're proposing. The conditions that caused it to happen then still exist today and are in fact even stronger now in many ways, so the promise of 'compromise' on the issue rings pretty hollow.

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

this is ICE we're talking here, ten bucks they actually are nabbing up and trying and/or managing to kick out hispanic citizens

... also pretty sure a lot of what Teh Hitler did was enforcing the law, too, for what that's worth.

There are recorded incidents of ICE deporting citizens.

Have you got links?

[wierd]

Baffler:

Sounds like you just need to increase the timetable from 10 years, to 3, so that it happens within a single administration.

That means throwing even more resources at the problem all at once, which imposes a legion of bureaucratic nightmares, but there you have it.  (You know, little things like suddenly pouring dozens of times over more money into a system to grease the wheels up what good, and all the problems a rushed job induces.)

[Culise]

Have you got links?

This is from the ACLU; this is the same person, from HuffPo's perspective.  This is a different person, but I'm not familiar with the publication source.  Basically, a combination of incompetence, apathy, and the lack of due process extended to non-citizens which also applies to anyone merely accused of being a non-citizen. 

[Rolan7]

How is it again that Trump is Teh Hitler for allowing ICE to actually enforce the law? It's not like they're deporting Hispanic citizens, just the people who aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. Just like literally every other country on Earth, including the ones they're being sent back to, will do. The only difference here is in scale.

No no, we're literally nazis now
I agree that legal immigration needs to be expanded, but I'm always amazed at the popular support for illegal immigrants.  People who cut in line, started their lives here by breaking the law.  Even DACA, which I do support, is basically "Well, they held their own childrens' lives hostage...  Lets back down."  Because it's better to help the children, even if it rewards those parents.

Immigration is really good for America, illegal immigration is bad and only supports the corporations and rich, yet the left insists it's heroic.

[Baffler]

Baffler:

Sounds like you just need to increase the timetable from 10 years, to 3, so that it happens within a single administration.

That means throwing even more resources at the problem all at once, which imposes a legion of bureaucratic nightmares, but there you have it.  (You know, little things like suddenly pouring dozens of times over more money into a system to grease the wheels up what good, and all the problems a rushed job induces.)

Reducing the timetable does nothing for the fundamental problem. The prospect of millions of new loyal voters suddenly appearing in states that vote for the opposition, and God only knows how many industry dollars, are apparently too strong an enticement for Democratic politicians to resist. Bad behavior is inevitable. They simply have too much to gain and too little to lose.

Have you got links?

This is from the ACLU; this is the same person, from HuffPo's perspective.  This is a different person, but I'm not familiar with the publication source.  Basically, a combination of incompetence, apathy, and the lack of due process extended to non-citizens which also applies to anyone merely accused of being a non-citizen. 

Both those cases seem to be the result of clerical errors. Or rather, the ICE being bureaucratically inflexible. It shouldn't happen, and they both should have had better recourse, but fixing ICE's apparently common circular or impossible paperwork requirements strikes me as a separate (but important) issue.

[Frumple]

No no, we're literally nazis now
I agree that legal immigration needs to be expanded, but I'm always amazed at the popular support for illegal immigrants.  People who cut in line, started their lives here by breaking the law.  Even DACA, which I do support, is basically "Well, they held their own childrens' lives hostage...  Lets back down."  Because it's better to help the children, even if it rewards those parents.

Immigration is really good for America, illegal immigration is bad and only supports the corporations and rich, yet the left insists it's heroic.

And probably will until many of them stop coming from desperate situations (often enough caused in no small part due to how we fucked over wherever they came from, of course) and we unfuck our massively fucked up immigration system.

Though, as always, bucketloads broke not a single goddamn law getting into the country, and largely not one staying here when they overstayed the visa, either. Go make most the issues with undocumented entry and/or residence actually illegal, and then come back to talk a few years/decades later when our legal system recovers from having to give people trying to do the same fucking thing pretty much all our ancestors (well, barring the slaves) did the same rights we do criminals.

Regardless of even all that, plenty of the left may call it heroic, but still consider it better if undocumented immigration was reduced or stopped happening. It's just the clusterfuck primarily caused by the nativist racist fuckwits that have been leading our conservatives over the last several generations have made it still an improvement compared to the bullshit our systems in place are heaping over everything, including our own goddamn people.

Also hey, literally nazis, sure, nah, well, only white supremacists pushing their ideology from places like the sodding oval office. It's okay, though, we don't have swastikas flying over the white house, just neo-nazi terminology being spewed and aggressively pushed by the president and most of the fucking GOP leadership, stuff like that. Can't be reason to suspect maybe there's some problems on that general side of things.

[RedKing]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/14/585835311/shooter-and-possible-injuries-reported-at-broward-county-fla-high-school

You know the drill.

Thoughts, prayers, recriminations, indignant "BUT MUH RIGHTS", semantic arguments over what constitutes an "assault weapon" (note: Parkland shooter used an AR-15) and each side entrenches further and quietly hopes for the other side to all die in a fire. Nothing changes.

That about cover it?


I wonder if the NRA would support arming Hispanics in LA? After all, an armed populace is the only safeguard against government tyranny, or so I've been told.