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[Loud Whispers]

Korea was a separate province within the Mongol empire too. That's my point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Yuan_dynasty

Which you made by comparing it with England, Gaul and Rome, which sullies your point with false comparison. No land bridge existed between Gaul and Britain, from the moment of conquest it was always a separate adminstrative province.

That was my exact point.
Rome conquered Gaul, then from that foothold, conquered the more remote Britain.
Mongolia conquered China, then from that foothold, conquered the more remote Korea.
Gaul and Britain were distinct provinces of the empire, but so were mainland China and Korea. The Mongols recognized enough difference there to make a new province just for the small portion of the peninsula.

I do not have any issue with the distinctness of China or Korea, I have issue with the comparison you are making. Rome conquered Gaul and from Gaul went on to conquer the island of Britain, Mongolia conquered Manchuria, from there vassalized the peninsula of Korea, then went on to conquer China - before centralizing its rule and dividing its territories into separate administrative regions. That is to say nothing of the differences between a nomadic horde making the transition from acquiring tributes to become a bureaucratic Empire, compared to the constant administrative efforts of the Roman Empire to manage direct control, client Kings and tin/copper extraction efforts. To reiterate, England was never a part of Gaul, this is in contrast to Korea which until the Yuan's administrative reform, was governed the same as northern China, and China proper wasn't even under full Mongol rule. Hence why I find the Britain-India-Burma example far more appropriate

England is still Denmark though

#daneluv4ever

Sadly Normans killed it

*EDIT
It gets worse

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At one point Britain and Gaul were the same administrative province under Rome

[smjjames]

well uh, lets just segue back into american politics right quick:

NK detains an american for whatever reason
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39683518

I wonder how el presidente is going to respond

Probably try to send SEAL team six over and rescue the person, heh. In all seriousness though, it'll definetly be interesting to see how Trump handles it.

[ChairmanPoo]

well uh, lets just segue back into american politics right quick:

NK detains an american for whatever reason
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39683518

I wonder how el presidente is going to respond

Probably try to send SEAL team six over and rescue the person, heh. In all seriousness though, it'll definetly be interesting to see how Trump handles it.

The man was identified only by his surname, Kim.

Maybe they're just arranging a family reunion?

[Azzuro]

Best way I heard it put is:  Saying Korea was once part of china is like saying southern england was once part of italy.

Well... I am not sure that is EXACTLY accurate... I... think China was still technically China when it owned Korea. (well ok... it was named something else entirely...)

While Italy was... well... Not Italy at all.

And one which you're blatantly unqualified to talk about, given that you've fallen for the CCP propaganda of 5000 years of Unbroken Glorious Chinese History and the State of China. So please don't bullshit about history you know nothing about and read on the Internet, thanks.

It is more that China is such a cluster crud of people taking over, being deposed, then coming back into power but unaffiliated with the original power yet still sort of... Often times with the original power bases staying SOMEWHAT intact.

Not to mention that even the term "Rule" is such a tenuous term when speaking about China's history.

And that isn't even getting into "What even is China?" at certain periods of time.

THAT is why I said "Under Mongol Rule alone is a complicated history"

That and Italy is extremely recent and is kind of rather disconnected from Rome other than being in the exact same location as it... as well as a few other treaties.

So would you like to elaborate on how "China was technically still China when it owned Korea"? And on what "owned" means in this context?

P.S. Where did you learn Chinese history from?

[sluissa]

You could argue that modern China as it exists since the 1950s is only related in a vague geographical sense to any form of ancient China and thus shouldn't even have the luxury of calling itself China except through the fact that I don't think trademarks existed for ancient China (In which case I declare myself the Chinese Empire) EDIT: Dumb joke, ignore. Anything that happened 1000+ years ago is basically not worth considering as far as modern borders are concerned.

Pulling ancient territorial claims out of your ass is perhaps the flimsiest claim to ownership you can come up with short of "God came down and told me this was mine."

[Reelya]

Korea was a separate province within the Mongol empire too. That's my point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Yuan_dynasty

Which you made by comparing it with England, Gaul and Rome, which sullies your point with false comparison. No land bridge existed between Gaul and Britain, from the moment of conquest it was always a separate adminstrative province.

Uh, so was Korea, which the link I already provided shows. Korea's existing king maintained power, but each generation was required to marry a Mongol princess. It was a distinct administrative province, and in fact was noted for being particularly distinct because it kept its regional monarchy in power all through the Yuan years. Here's the specific wiki page about the administration in Korea at the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Yuan_rule

Korea under Yuan rule refers to the domination of the Yuan dynasty over the Korean Peninsula from about 1270 to 1356. After the Mongol invasions of Korea and the capitulation of Korea's Goryeo dynasty in the 13th century, Goryeo became a semi-autonomous vassal state and compulsory ally of the Yuan dynasty for about 80 years. The ruling line of Goryeo was permitted to rule Korea as a vassal of the Yuan, but members of the royal family were taken to Mongolia, raised there, and typically married to spouses from the Yuan imperial house.

The rulers were taken to be educated in Mongolia specifically. i.e. it never fell under Chinese administration, at any point.

[Neonivek]

You could argue that modern China as it exists since the 1950s is only related in a vague geographical sense to any form of ancient China and thus shouldn't even have the luxury of calling itself China except through the fact that I don't think trademarks existed for ancient China (In which case I declare myself the Chinese Empire) EDIT: Dumb joke, ignore. Anything that happened 1000+ years ago is basically not worth considering as far as modern borders are concerned.

Pulling ancient territorial claims out of your ass is perhaps the flimsiest claim to ownership you can come up with short of "God came down and told me this was mine."

The issue I have is even IF we were to assume that China in its current form always existed (And frankly... Grand Narrative tends to always side with this thinking)... it doesn't mean it has any special rights to other countries or even its own territories.

That is ridiculous and frankly ahistorical.

It is something that Imperial UK would teach... or the KKK

it never fell under Chinese administration, at any point.

It was a Chinese Tributary during the Ming Dynasty.

Then again... You DID say "Korea" and THAT is also a complicated subject!

[redwallzyl]

Basically everyone near them was a tributary at some point and if you count the mongols as china it gets absurd as to what is rightful Chinese clay.

[Azzuro]

Best way I heard it put is:  Saying Korea was once part of china is like saying southern england was once part of italy.

Well... I am not sure that is EXACTLY accurate... I... think China was still technically China when it owned Korea. (well ok... it was named something else entirely...)

While Italy was... well... Not Italy at all.

And one which you're blatantly unqualified to talk about, given that you've fallen for the CCP propaganda of 5000 years of Unbroken Glorious Chinese History and the State of China. So please don't bullshit about history you know nothing about and read on the Internet, thanks.

It is more that China is such a cluster crud of people taking over, being deposed, then coming back into power but unaffiliated with the original power yet still sort of... Often times with the original power bases staying SOMEWHAT intact.

Not to mention that even the term "Rule" is such a tenuous term when speaking about China's history.

And that isn't even getting into "What even is China?" at certain periods of time.

THAT is why I said "Under Mongol Rule alone is a complicated history"

That and Italy is extremely recent and is kind of rather disconnected from Rome other than being in the exact same location as it... as well as a few other treaties.

You could argue that modern China as it exists since the 1950s is only related in a vague geographical sense to any form of ancient China and thus shouldn't even have the luxury of calling itself China except through the fact that I don't think trademarks existed for ancient China (In which case I declare myself the Chinese Empire) EDIT: Dumb joke, ignore. Anything that happened 1000+ years ago is basically not worth considering as far as modern borders are concerned.

Pulling ancient territorial claims out of your ass is perhaps the flimsiest claim to ownership you can come up with short of "God came down and told me this was mine."

The issue I have is even IF we were to assume that China in its current form always existed (And frankly... Grand Narrative tends to always side with this thinking)... it doesn't mean it has any special rights to other countries or even its own territories.

That is ridiculous and frankly ahistorical.

It is something that Imperial UK would teach... or the KKK

it never fell under Chinese administration, at any point.

It was a Chinese Tributary during the Ming Dynasty.

Then again... You DID say "Korea" and THAT is also a complicated subject!

Pictured: Neo about 80 degrees? of the way through his 180 reversal on whether China has always existed as a state for 5000 years.

Basically everyone near them was a tributary at some point and if you count the mongols as china it gets absurd as to what is rightful Chinese clay.

*rightful Chinese porcelain. Clay is for barbarians, not the Middle Kingdom.

*rightful Chinese china?

[Neonivek]

Basically everyone near them was a tributary at some point and if you count the mongols as china it gets absurd as to what is rightful Chinese clay.

And that is ignoring the sheer number of times China has bulldozed their own history in order to legitimize current rules and just sort of created a supposition that it was a forever kingdom (It is something I will never support... yet more widely practiced then you would think)

You would think ONE of those "No no no, all history is now legally void! BURN THE BOOKS!" would stick

Pictured: Neo about 80 degrees? of the way through his 180 reversal on whether China has always existed as a state for 5000 years.

That is because that is a belief you were imposing onto me. Of COURSE it would seem like I am contradicting myself is you completely don't understand my POV and are just superimposing an insulting one.

Well... to you an insulting one. I don't know why it is so important TO YOU that China needs to not exist... I mean it is all a pretense... an excuse.

[Reelya]

Not sure if paying tribute counts as being "part of" another country. Germany had to pay tribute after WWI.

... but the 194 BC invasion of Korea probably counts more than the other ones we're discussing. Although, the furthest south (which is actually disputed) that they got was actually just south of the North Korean border.

[Neonivek]

Not sure if paying tribute counts as being "part of" another country. Germany had to pay tribute after WWI.

Germany wasn't a tributary though. They had to pay back the cost of the war and no single country took claim to my knowledge.

And being a tributary as being "part of" another empire... It is what Rome often did (well... often even less). Though yeah.

This is why things are messed up!

[Azzuro]

Best way I heard it put is:  Saying Korea was once part of china is like saying southern england was once part of italy.

Well... I am not sure that is EXACTLY accurate... I... think China was still technically China when it owned Korea. (well ok... it was named something else entirely...)

While Italy was... well... Not Italy at all.

Basically everyone near them was a tributary at some point and if you count the mongols as china it gets absurd as to what is rightful Chinese clay.

And that is ignoring the sheer number of times China has bulldozed their own history in order to legitimize current rules and just sort of created a supposition that it was a forever kingdom (It is something I will never support... yet more widely practiced then you would think)

You would think ONE of those "No no no, all history is now legally void! BURN THE BOOKS!" would stick

Pictured: Neo about 80 degrees? of the way through his 180 reversal on whether China has always existed as a state for 5000 years.

That is because that is a belief you were imposing onto me. Of COURSE it would seem like I am contradicting myself is you completely don't understand my POV and are just superimposing an insulting one.

Well... to you an insulting one. I don't know why it is so important TO YOU that China needs to not exist... I mean it is all a pretense... an excuse.

180 degrees, folks.

I'd like to see how you explain "China was technically still China when it owned Korea" and "a supposition that it was a forever kingdom...something I will never support" together, please.

And whether China as a state has existed continuously throughout history or not, that's a resounding no in my view, and I'm not offended if people claim otherwise. I just find it funny that the long arm of CCP media efforts have reached all the way to here.

[Reelya]

The problem is that the list of tributaries of Ming China includes Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and Java (Indonesia) and other such places. Being a tributary doesn't necessarily show that Korea was "part of" China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China#Ming

Under the Ming dynasty, countries that wanted to have any form of relationship with China, political, economic or otherwise, had to enter the tribute system. As a result, tribute was often paid for opportunistic reasons rather than as a serious gesture of allegiance to the Chinese emperor, and the mere fact that tribute was paid may not be understood in a way that China had political leverage over its tributary.

So no the argument doesn't stand up to a cursory google.

[Neonivek]

So no the argument doesn't stand up to a cursory google

Well less argument. But that is interesting.

Though I believe Korea at the time... was... two countries? Or was it one country but with a different centralized power? Dang it! I need to brush up on my Korean history...

And whether China as a state has existed continuously throughout history or not, that's a resounding no in my view, and I'm not offended if people claim otherwise. I just find it funny that the long arm of CCP media efforts have reached all the way to here.

Yes... Curse my brainwashed mind for knowing something about Chinese History and not just imagining it was a desolate wasteland like Azzuro.

Sorry if that offends you.