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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4242006 times)

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3420 on: March 11, 2017, 07:52:41 pm »

If you allow yourself to hate, you have already lost.

Nobody started out that way. You will hate something that is actually evil or wrong, but hate is extremely difficult to be rid of once you let it in. Dehumanizing another person or ESPECIALLY another group of people will absolutely end with you, one day, in the same position as what you hate. You are literally engaging in the same behavior that you decry in those you hate.

The who and why and them and they will be different for you, but it will never go away. It's not risky or dangerous to hate, it's morally suicidal.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3421 on: March 11, 2017, 08:10:45 pm »

So, apparently Trump fired US Attorney Bahara (along with the other 45) to get back at Schumer, as obviously political as it was, is that even ethical, with the intent of it..... Smells of stepping into it that didn't even need to be stepped into.

source as soon as I can find an online one.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3422 on: March 11, 2017, 08:17:08 pm »

... it's maybe passing, but I will say y'all might want to pay a bit more attention to everything max (and misk, in a more tempered fashion) is saying, instead of focusing on bits of the tail end of it. There's basically one thing they're dehumanizing, and they state the reasons for it pretty clearly. Blanket condemnation of dehumanization et al isn't addressing the point being presented, at all.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3423 on: March 11, 2017, 08:24:02 pm »

... it's maybe passing, but I will say y'all might want to pay a bit more attention to everything max (and misk, in a more tempered fashion) is saying, instead of focusing on bits of the tail end of it. There's basically one thing they're dehumanizing, and they state the reasons for it pretty clearly. Blanket condemnation of dehumanization et al isn't addressing the point being presented, at all.

The point is that Trump is a narcissisic POS, right? We already know that.

Dunamisdeos does have a point however, give into the hate and you risk becoming the monster you despise, or fight against. And I was calling for the temp to be turned down a couple notches, it's not flamey yet.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3424 on: March 11, 2017, 08:38:42 pm »

Nah, the point is they're identifying him as a clinical narcissist, with a good chunk of the whys and what it entails. What that means is rather different than the casual sort of narcissist that gets terms like POS tacked on the end. You can't really become that sort of monster by fighting it unless you already were one... or your opposition has you catch some brain damage, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 08:40:40 pm by Frumple »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3425 on: March 11, 2017, 08:47:52 pm »

It's not even healthy to dehumanize Trump. Even if you wish to fight him tooth and nail at every word he says, he's still human, and you still have think of him those terms. One of the reasons he got to where he is is because people didn't take him seriously, didn't treat him like a real candidate. They treated him as something lesser... they dehumanized him.

Do that at your own risk. A lot of the occurrences of Trump lashing out with things like the US Attorney resignations/firings, the fake news, the reliance on breitbart and fox news, the tweets, are directly connected to people not respecting him.


You can argue all you want about what's going on in his head, but he is the president, and the power is his to lash out with.

Now you can argue there might be some value in getting him to lash out enough that he breaks a rule hard enough he can be shut down by Congress. But I feel like that's just as dangerous as the people who claim to want Trump as a "burn down everything and rebuild from the ground" candidate.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3426 on: March 11, 2017, 09:04:35 pm »

Obviously he's a human, but perhaps not a member of society like you or I.  In a way, ironically, he may be an illegal immigrant.

He didn't win because people underestimated his "humanity", but because they overestimated his rationality.  He behaved wildly unlike any other candidate in history - unlike how five nines of Americans would have in the situation.  His opponents and the media reacted by pretending he was normal but foolish, or just kidding around for publicity.  THAT is why he won the primary and marginally the election.  Because his strategy was literally alien, incomprehensible.  Also whimsical.

Which is a great way to win an election that's so heavily entrenched towards two monolithic parties.  But now he's in power and, well, it turns out being a Malkavian doesn't prepare you for actually running the United States.  He didn't even put a staff together, and over two months later he still hasn't!

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, for many reasons, and I also haven't run for public office.
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muldrake

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3427 on: March 11, 2017, 10:29:51 pm »

Which is a great way to win an election that's so heavily entrenched towards two monolithic parties.  But now he's in power and, well, it turns out being a Malkavian doesn't prepare you for actually running the United States.  He didn't even put a staff together, and over two months later he still hasn't!

I'm glad he hasn't.  It will hobble his ability to do the genuinely awful things he wants to do.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3428 on: March 11, 2017, 10:35:37 pm »

Which is a great way to win an election that's so heavily entrenched towards two monolithic parties.  But now he's in power and, well, it turns out being a Malkavian doesn't prepare you for actually running the United States.  He didn't even put a staff together, and over two months later he still hasn't!

I'm glad he hasn't.  It will hobble his ability to do the genuinely awful things he wants to do.

It'll be a double edged sword however, it will hobble him, yes, but a poorly functioning government has other consequences too.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3429 on: March 11, 2017, 11:44:37 pm »

I was listening to podcasts like i do and ran across an interview about this whole populist mechanism. give it a listen and tell me what you think.

http://www.reconsidermedia.com/podcast/podemos-trump-and-the-populists-path-to-power
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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3430 on: March 12, 2017, 12:10:36 am »

I was listening to podcasts like i do and ran across an interview about this whole populist mechanism. give it a listen and tell me what you think.

http://www.reconsidermedia.com/podcast/podemos-trump-and-the-populists-path-to-power

I'm interested but can't listen. Is there a transcript somewhere?
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3431 on: March 12, 2017, 12:23:54 am »

I was listening to podcasts like i do and ran across an interview about this whole populist mechanism. give it a listen and tell me what you think.

http://www.reconsidermedia.com/podcast/podemos-trump-and-the-populists-path-to-power

I'm interested but can't listen. Is there a transcript somewhere?
try any podcast service, iTunes is how i listened to it. its the "reconsider" podcast.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3432 on: March 12, 2017, 03:05:26 am »

Ugh. I really didn't want to write any of this, but it appears that I have, and it's gotten kinda long, so I may as well let people actually see it instead of consigning it to the metaphorical flames.
Oh for fuck's sake maybe I should just write a fucking article or book on this or something if I'm going to do all this damn writing in my spare time. I mean seriously, I worked harder on this than on some of my essays in college. I'd almost prefer we moved on from this topic if we could, because once I get going I can't stop. The short version is that I don't think attacking Trump's supporters is a good idea.
Nah, the point is they're identifying him as a clinical narcissist, with a good chunk of the whys and what it entails. What that means is rather different than the casual sort of narcissist that gets terms like POS tacked on the end. You can't really become that sort of monster by fighting it unless you already were one... or your opposition has you catch some brain damage, I guess.
If I could sum everything up in once sentence, it would be that. We say all sorts of stuff, but really clinical narcissist is a pretty coherent explanation by itself. It requires a lot of writing to explain because it implies a great deal, but in a nutshell, if you write "a racist, misogynist, self-aggrandizing, self-victimizing, bullying nacissist", you are just being redundant. Anyone can do narcissistic things, or have certain narcissistic traits (although those aren't healthy things to have, mind!), but narcissism itself is something altogether more unsettling.
It's not even healthy to dehumanize Trump. Even if you wish to fight him tooth and nail at every word he says, he's still human, and you still have think of him those terms. One of the reasons he got to where he is is because people didn't take him seriously, didn't treat him like a real candidate. They treated him as something lesser... they dehumanized him.
I feel like you are on to an interesting point here, and I'd like to dwell on it for a moment.
I was listening to podcasts like i do and ran across an interview about this whole populist mechanism. give it a listen and tell me what you think.

http://www.reconsidermedia.com/podcast/podemos-trump-and-the-populists-path-to-power

I'm interested but can't listen. Is there a transcript somewhere?
I'd like to read it too.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3433 on: March 12, 2017, 06:41:56 am »

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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3434 on: March 12, 2017, 08:23:27 am »

try any podcast service, iTunes is how i listened to it. its the "reconsider" podcast.
I don't know about "service" (I use happen to use Podcast Republic as a local automatic aggregator, but tend to download the straight MP3s of things I'm not interested in 'subscribing' to keep up with every new episode, and tabs on those I've listened to, so a convenient 'directory management' system can only ever be a loss-leader for accompanying premium content and/or ad-based revenue streams for the party concerned) but I think the main question was whether there was a transcript.  Some people are deaf/HoH, others may be a bit bottlenecked in the old downloading bandwidth (not that MPEG 1/2 Audio Layer III is relatively that heavy, these days, but it's a consideration), or just really rather more like to absorb (or skimgand-re-review) a written version rather than have to half an hour's chatter going in their ears when it may be less convenient.

More words than I intended (less bits than the audio version!), just thought that maybe the possible point of the "can't listen" bit had been overlooked.
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