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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4251016 times)

Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2130 on: February 18, 2017, 09:52:55 pm »

I think you missed this part rolan, it is kinda important.
[stats where the diversity programs actually lowered minority hire rates or demographics]
While proportions are something we can actually measure, it's not really the important part to me.  Hiring (and tuition) quotas tend to bother me, honestly...  I'm more interested in the workplace being professional and welcoming to all types.

Basically imagine the 50's...  I want it to be not that.
Anyway, sorry I snapped a bit earlier...  Sleep issues.  No hard feelings I hope.  Actually closing the tab this time XD
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2131 on: February 18, 2017, 09:57:25 pm »

I wont argue with that goal, it is good and noble.

There is a catch there though.  Offensive people are a part of the "all types" set.  An inclusive environment, includes them.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2132 on: February 18, 2017, 10:18:26 pm »

Yes but have they found out why sensitivity programs do that?

I mean they know why the drug campaigns at schools actually managed to increase the rate of drug use in schools.

Quote
If I was someone else I'd just report him and be done with it

I am not sure that would have went anywhere... The key is more that someone recognizably escalated and then someone escalated ontop of that...

People aren't asking you to stop from a position of weakness... Take that as a win. I know how terrible it is to have people disagree with you and then say YOU are the one who needs to stop simply because they don't agree with you... all the while including "Ohh and they are right... But you need to stop... But they are right" last word nonsense.

Actually, they tried to address that question, yes.

Quote
“But when we began to interview managers to understand why popular programs don’t work, it began to make sense. Social scientists have long known that if you try to control people’s thoughts and behavior, they rebel. That’s what we find — programs designed to reeducate managers or stop them from discriminating directly tend to backfire,” Dobin noted.

It is the same pathology with why forced reeducation in general does not work, and is always a bad thing.

We could question the validity of his determination, I suppose-- look for measurable results from other studies to see if his assertion is actually true, or just an internal bias-- I would welcome any such attempt.

Personally though, (and I admit that this is a personal bias) I agree with him on the matter.  It has been my observation as well.  You see it in everything from research into the (lack of) merit behind corporal punishment, (and how it leads to defiant, and even violent behavior) to things like the afore mentioned study.

Forced imposition of a world view onto somebody that does not share it is wrong.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2133 on: February 18, 2017, 10:30:57 pm »

Well, considering that we have the most incarcerated people per population in the world (although finding a graph that compares countries as if they had equal populations might be useful) despite having 5% the world population. Yeah, we need to seriously get away from the mass incarceration system. Though there are many factors involved.

Anyway, Reince Priebus says that Trump's comments on media should be taken seriously, while at the same time railing about anonymous sources. And (I'm extrapolating from the last paragraph) journalists were like 'Oh really? Do they want to be on record all the time from now on?'. Not to mention failing to know how journalism works.

The Hill article on the same thing.

edit: Also, I'd ask him "What would an article look like if the media is not an enemy of the people? Could you give me an example of one? Surely there are some that are good now."

Also this from The Hill article: ""If the theory is that the press is supposed to be a free forum of information to speak to the American people, I think it ought to be accurate," Priebus responded." Such hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:38:25 pm by smjjames »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2134 on: February 18, 2017, 10:42:11 pm »

Not really hypocrisy per se...

Remember, there is a difference between "truth" (fact, objectively verifiable), and "truth" (what a person believes to be factual).

This guy has biases, which predispose him to see truth (fact, objectively verifiable) as "untrue" (not what he believes to be factual.)


The inability to account for one's own biases is a very serious problem today, as is the lack of education for understanding why just because something coincides with your world view, it may not actually be factual.

This guy wants the press to coincide with his world view, because that is what he considers to be "truth."
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palsch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2135 on: February 18, 2017, 11:24:20 pm »

Still, the guy shouldn't even have GOTTEN the job in the first place, the loss of security clearance alone would be a red flag.

This is the main reason I'm hammering on Trump's lack of recruitment and the low quality of those he has hired. This is something that was warned about before he was elected and quickly became the focus among those who have worked in government before; people simply don't believe they can work for him. These departments are complicated organs that carry out (contrary to some beliefs) important roles in the world. Having functional organs of governance in the USA is important for most of us around the world. Having these organs fail due to a lack of staff or mismanagement by the incompetent, inexperienced staff that are put in place is going to have serious consequences.

I mean, the fact that the usual processes for handling and disseminating intelligence in the US executive branch - the NSC - is effectively dead is disturbing. The White House seems to be running on an unofficial advisory body made up of complete outsiders who believe in ideology over fact. You have intelligence and defence agencies looking at how to establish their own unofficial NSC processes to effectively replicate what is being lost. That the White House seems to believe that the only threat any intelligence agency should ever acknowledge is Islam/ISIS should scare the shit out of everyone.

Then you have the damage done to the State Department, grossly understaffed, ignored by the White House and trying to shore up a narrative undercut every time Trump himself speaks. The US no longer has a foreign policy. It has absurdity and contradictions.

Most politicians break promises and water down positions once they take office. This is because, generally, you have to adjust broad promises to match reality. There are legal and practical considerations that often only become clear when you have the advantage of the full advice of the working government. Examining policies to see what the outcomes may be - and how to reach towards a desired goal without being counterproductive or grossly harmful - is something you need functioning, experienced departments to manage. Trump has no interest in establishing such a government and seems to be actively removing the processes that do such fact checking. He is implementing policies that have the opposite of their stated effect - such as a travel ban that has no positive security benefits and while offering a recruiting tool for extremists, or removing an environmental regulation that would have created as many jobs as it removed to save the older, more temporary roles - without vetting them by the bodies which would tell him such things before he did them. And unless something drastic changes I see that continuing and causing great harm in the US and on the world stage.

I know a lot of people like the idea of burning down the US government, but this isn't going to reduce the potential harm it can cause, just ensure it inflicts that harm blindly and randomly. Much of what will be lost are checks and balances, as well as advice and experience on how to effectively and positively take actions without counter-productive results. Trump can still wield the power of his office, but he will be using it based on TV news spots. That is scary.



We have Russia saying that separatists in southeast Ukraine will have passports recognised, effectively pretending the region is now independent. Does anyone believe the US government has the bandwidth, inclination or expertise to bring a nuanced response to this? Would Russia have any reason to respect any attempt to get them to back down and abide by the law? There are rumours that Bannon and his SIG are looking at some sort of grand bargain with Russia, but as noted in that Tweet stream it doesn't make much sense unless they are coming from a position of weakness for no apparent reason. Russia can't really give the US much that it wants or needs right now. If they wanted to work with Russia against ISIS that would be a great favour to Russia - offering legitimacy to their actions in Syria and the Assad regime - not something that would require further concessions. We are the ones who have sanctions against Russia and removing them would, again, be the US doing something for Russia. Literally the only thing would be if Russia agrees to abandon Iran. Which is a disturbing idea, that Bannon sees sacrificing Ukrane and weakening NATO as worthwhile to isolate Iran.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2136 on: February 18, 2017, 11:38:39 pm »

We have Russia saying that separatists in southeast Ukraine will have passports recognised, effectively pretending the region is now independent. Does anyone believe the US government has the bandwidth, inclination or expertise to bring a nuanced response to this? Would Russia have any reason to respect any attempt to get them to back down and abide by the law? There are rumours that Bannon and his SIG are looking at some sort of grand bargain with Russia, but as noted in that Tweet stream it doesn't make much sense unless they are coming from a position of weakness for no apparent reason. Russia can't really give the US much that it wants or needs right now. If they wanted to work with Russia against ISIS that would be a great favour to Russia - offering legitimacy to their actions in Syria and the Assad regime - not something that would require further concessions. We are the ones who have sanctions against Russia and removing them would, again, be the US doing something for Russia. Literally the only thing would be if Russia agrees to abandon Iran. Which is a disturbing idea, that Bannon sees sacrificing Ukrane and weakening NATO as worthwhile to isolate Iran.

Sergarr already mentioned that on the non-EU Europe thread. But yeah, I don't see them getting much of anything done against Russia, at least not in a coherent and safe way with the Department of State gutted, kneecapped, and hogtied the way it is. Heck, the Russians themselves have complained that the usual channels for talking to each other are missing.

Also, spotted this on the BBC. I don't know how far ahead in advance things like 'routine operations' are planned, but this is certainly something to keep an eye out for.

Also2, I read an article (forget what) that the usual diplomatic channels to safeguard against an unexpected incident are currently unmanned, so, if someone does something really rash that happens to spook Trump, who knows what'll happen.

Also, wouldn't any 'grand bargain' have to be okayed by Congress? At the very least, the Russia hawks will be watching it closely.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 11:48:06 pm by smjjames »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2137 on: February 18, 2017, 11:44:38 pm »

I can only imagine...

(distortion dissolve--)

North Korea launches an ICBM filled with NAIR at Donald Trump's head, denouncing that imperialists in the US are not satisfied with just denying the superiority of the Korean People's Republic, but also in trying to shamelessly copy Glorious Leader, and that they will not stand for this.

Trump retaliates in force.

Things escalate quickly.

(distortion dissolve back to reality)

No... No I dont want to think like that.  The very idea that this could maybe actually happen.. No. Please make it stop.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2138 on: February 18, 2017, 11:48:20 pm »

turns out all those government jobs and institutions are actually important and exist for a reason. who knew? ::)
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2139 on: February 18, 2017, 11:48:36 pm »

We have Russia saying that separatists in southeast Ukraine will have passports recognised, effectively pretending the region is now independent. Does anyone believe the US government has the bandwidth, inclination or expertise to bring a nuanced response to this? Would Russia have any reason to respect any attempt to get them to back down and abide by the law? There are rumours that Bannon and his SIG are looking at some sort of grand bargain with Russia, but as noted in that Tweet stream it doesn't make much sense unless they are coming from a position of weakness for no apparent reason. Russia can't really give the US much that it wants or needs right now. If they wanted to work with Russia against ISIS that would be a great favour to Russia - offering legitimacy to their actions in Syria and the Assad regime - not something that would require further concessions. We are the ones who have sanctions against Russia and removing them would, again, be the US doing something for Russia. Literally the only thing would be if Russia agrees to abandon Iran. Which is a disturbing idea, that Bannon sees sacrificing Ukrane and weakening NATO as worthwhile to isolate Iran.

Sergarr already mentioned that on the non-EU Europe thread. But yeah, I don't see them getting much of anything done against Russia, at least not in a coherent and safe way with the Department of State gutted, kneecapped, and hogtied the way it is. Heck, the Russians themselves have complained that the usual channels for talking to each other are missing.

Also, spotted this on the BBC. I don't know how far ahead in advance things like 'routine operations' are planned, but this is certainly something to keep an eye out for.

Also2, I read an article (forget what) that the usual diplomatic channels to safeguard against an unexpected incident are currently unmanned, so, if someone does something really rash that happens to spook Trump, who knows what'll happen.
Oh gosh, lets not even consider that possibility. I'm operating on the hope that Trump is so earnestly out-of-his-damn-mind that our international antagonists will genuinely be too spooked to start something (so yes, literally Nixon's madman strategy). The alternative - that Donald Trump will have to navigate some sort of serious crisis, particularly one where military force an escalation is involved - is perhaps too terrible to contemplate.

Imagine if the Cuban Missile Crisis happened now. Then, stop imagining it, because it's just bad for your sanity.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2140 on: February 18, 2017, 11:49:54 pm »

turns out all those government jobs and institutions are actually important and exist for a reason. who knew? ::)

Look how was Trump supposed to know any of this?

I mean... it isn't like he had the opportunity to get private tutoring from the previous president and things on those lines...

Wait did he stay for the entire tutoring sessions? I thought he like went to the first two ones and was like "Yeah, done"
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2141 on: February 18, 2017, 11:54:44 pm »

I meant more like two planes accidentially colliding, something that would be considered a minor incident and a misunderstanding. The usual diplomatic channels that help manage that aren't manned, or aren't functioning well, to my understanding.

Basically, it's like palsch said, without a fully functioning government and agencies, something that would normally be handled could end up being much bigger than it otherwise would be.

Though Putin can keep his cool a hell of a lot easier than Trump. Imagine if Turkey had shot down an American plane and not a Russian one.

We just haven't had any major incidents happen yet, and it's inevitable for one to happen at some point. How many did Obama have? (rhetorical question)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 11:57:39 pm by smjjames »
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Aklyon

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2142 on: February 18, 2017, 11:56:57 pm »

So not only do we have a bad joke president, we're missing very important everythings because he can't be bothered to run things effectively?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2143 on: February 18, 2017, 11:59:53 pm »

So not only do we have a bad joke president, we're missing very important everythings because he can't be bothered to run things effectively?

Pretty much. Theres loads of positions that he hasn't even picked people for yet.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2144 on: February 19, 2017, 12:01:17 am »

.....

And the way he is going about the hiring/firing process, anyone sane will refuse appointment.
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