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[wierd]

I can see you have not yet removed your rose colored glasses.

See the actual meaning in what Reelya posted 2 pages back about "the political class."

The SJW crowd was privileged to be part of that "political class", and it WAS making changes in the world-- Some good, some bad, despite what anyone else had to say in the matter.

Remember-- it is the "true believer" that causes the most harm, because they believe they can do nothing wrong, and that they are aligned with "the forces of good(tm)".

The ministries of truth and love go hand in hand.  Clearly, you did not understand the ending to 1984, when Winston realizes that he really did love big brother, and that everything was good with the world. (Despite being as despotic and shitty as ever.)

The religious conservatives believe they service a higher power (a divine, all loving god, who just cant stand that gay sex!), and earnestly want everyone to serve that same higher power, out of "divine love."

The SJWs earnestly believe that they service a higher calling (universal tolerance and compassion-- which just cant stand those people that think differently!) and earnestly want everyone to serve the same calling, out of "universal tolerance."

Neither side understands why the other objects to their methods.

They are both sides of the same sordid, filthy little coin. Refusal to admit that, and believing falsely that either side is capable of being more than just a petty hate machine in the end, is foolish. You will reap the consequences.

[Rolepgeek]

Isn't electroshock therapy banned in those camps since like 1990?

So saying he supports electroshock therapy is maybe a little bit taking things out of context in order to support your worldview, is it not?

[wierd]

More than that-- he supports camps for people who WILLINGLY GO.

http://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-therapy/

See how that is more in line with my interpretation, than the "THEM! EVIL!! *HISS!*" interpretation?

[Frumple]

Well, I see a painful ignorance of exactly what likes to be called willing in those situations, at the least.

And no, electroshock's still legal in the states. Some states it's a bit more regulated than others, and it's illegal to give it to people under 16, but that's about it.

[Rolan7]

Yeah Weird, everyone thinks they're right.  That's like... the end of the equivalency.
I admit I don't follow your point, but I simply disagree that the SJW are part of a "privileged" "political class".  They were not and are not in government.  The Moral Majority types are and always have been.

I agree that some people get some really stupid ideas in pursuit of equality and fairness.  Often they even try to hurt people with their words.  But this fad is simply nothing compared to the conservatives in government who expressly want to force women to carry their children, ban "unnatural" sex, and establish monuments to their religion/culture in places of government.

All that shit is real - it ACTUALLY happened.  Moderate-progressives have scaled a lot of it back, and that's a good thing.  Screeching SJWs have nothing to do with government - if they DID, then yes, they'd be a similarly dangerous mirror image of the Moral Majority.  Instead, basic civil liberties are coming from moderates who look at the rest of the world and say "Hey, maybe we could imitate just a *little* of that progress?"

More than that-- he supports camps for people who WILLINGLY GO.

http://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-therapy/

See how that is more in line with my interpretation, than the "THEM! EVIL!! *HISS!*" interpretation?

Yeah, we've come such a long way.  Only half joking. 
Still, parents "encourage" their kids to go at dollar-point.  Which is particularly bad since they simply don't work, just repress.

[wierd]

I see that you did not do what I asked you to do, and still cling to the false notion that "IN GOVERNMENT RIGHT NAAOOW!!!" == "political class"

Here, I will quote Reelya for you, who gets it right,

Well, yeah, anyone that would have said a year ago what Trump is saying now would have been considered an extreme mental case in the category tinfoil hatter.
I just can't wrap my head around what the fuck happened with people's sanity in such short time.

They were probably there all along. There's something to the view that there's a narrow "elite" consensus. It's what Noam Chomsky calls the "political class". More broadly, it's all the white collar professional classes who, between them, basically control the national conversation.

Basically, the elite classes whitewash all the views that don't fit their consensus, no matter whether they're from the right wing or left wing. They dictate the range of views that are represented in the media, so they dictate the bounds of "normal" conversation. All other views are held to be outliers not worthy of comment. But those "outlier" views are often held by the working classes, who outnumber the elite. Any time there's an outpouring of any form of sentiment against "elite consensus" views the media just writes it off as unimportant. But that's like saying a locust plague will go away if you write enough articles explaining how it's not a problem.

So Trump is against the "fake new" mainstream media not because they write things about him but because their core constituency are the white-collar classes, whereas Trump has resonated with marginalized segments of the working class / blue collar industries. So it's a class thing, which is typical of a populism, and not dissimilar to fascism.

The SJWs are in the political class.  The Right Wing Wackos were previously NOT in the political class, but are now in government.

[Dorsidwarf]

Reelya is underestimating the effect that sjw-ism is having on real life because they've never encountered it (ex. That NASA scientist who was hounded from his position for wearing a risqué shirt his friend made for him to celebrate the success of the project his team had been working on for years.)

Weird on the other hand is drastically over blowing their wide-scale importance and screaming and whipping them self into a frenzy for no fucking reason. Just because something is bad and real doesn't make it a giant institution.


Neither of you are 'moderates' here. Both of you are selectively picking and choosing evidence to support a distorted worldview and rejecting the other categorically.

[wierd]

Rolan, not reelya. Reelya is innocent here.

As for my lack of moderation-- possible. It's (true believers) a trigger for me, and I reject them soundly, in all forms.

[Cthulufaic]

Guys stop arguing McCain is right this time:http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/john-mccain-trump-press-235177

[wierd]

Funny, isnt it, how when an extreme faction gains power, everyone else suddenly sounds so much more sensible? ;P

[alway]

(ex. That NASA scientist who was hounded from his position for wearing a risqué shirt his friend made for him to celebrate the success of the project his team had been working on for years.)

Except he wasn't 'hounded from his position,' but rather was given $24k.

Guys stop arguing McCain is right this time:http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/john-mccain-trump-press-235177

McCain is just as bad as any of the others. He talks publicly about how terrible Trump is; but when it comes time to vote, the only form of speech that really matter when you're in Congress, he falls in line like all the rest. So wake me up when there's any real hint of anything more than paying lip-service to opposing Trump.

[Sergarr]

McCain is an empty weasel bag, and I won't change that verdict on him until he actually starts voting against Trump.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Point of order, real electroshock therapy isn't movie lightning torture, though I'm sure that's more likely than not how a conversion camp would do it. It's actually a very effective medical technique that isn't painful because it's supposed to be given to people under anesthetic, and can produce radical improvements in severe depression and catatonia.

(Ironically, this means that if a conversion camp did electroshock therapy correctly they might reverse the depression they induced in their victims.)

[smjjames]

People, when the bay12 poster whose appearance most closely mimicks alan moore when he was still a wizard posts the most reasonable and sound thing in the thread'ss last dozen pages, I think we should prob drop the ideological batshit flag and start listening to him.

I have no idea who you're talking about there.... Who's Alan Moore?

Flynn and the Trump transition team were working to try to stop resolution 2334 condemning Israeli settlements at the UN.

The episode also suggests that Flynn’s unconventional diplomatic activism in the weeks leading up to the inauguration was part of a highly coordinated effort at the highest ranks of the Trump team, including the president-elect, to shape the course of U.S. foreign relations.

That contrasts with the general portrayal so far of Flynn as a rogue envoy, whose secret talks in late December with Russia about sanctions were supposedly done without the knowledge of his superiors. Fox News reported Friday that Trump had been briefed on the full contents of Flynn’s discussions with the Russian ambassador.

The fact that they were trying to stop the Israel vote is kind of a worst kept secret. But yes, that is a point against Flynn being rogue and Trump not being behind it.

[wierd]

confusion of terms.

to the layman, there is no discernable difference between "negative reinforcement conditioning", and "electro-convulsive therapy."

The former requires the subject to be awake, and receive negative stimuli in conjunction with a stimulus that the conditioner wants to become associated. EG, "pictures of gay sex" with "Painful shocks".

The latter requires the subject to be restrained and anesthetized for their safety, and introduces an electrical current through the temples of their head, which has been shown to be powerfully effective in treating drug resistant, recurrent depression.

Both are "electroshock therapy", but are very different animals.  Negative reinforcement conditioning is not effective at changing the underlying impulses-- it just makes the person subjected to it very very uncomfortable, and in need of psycho therapy. (It does not matter the method of negative reinforcement. It could be getting cold water poured on you.)

My argument was not the methodology though-- but the intent.  The intent with things like "mandatory counseling", (such as compulsory anger management, or sensitivity training) is to compel somebody to change their internal impulses and conform to an outside social norm that is artificially imposed-- which is the exact same intent as negative reinforcement conditioning, and why it is just as disgusting, despite being "more gentle."

The onerous part is telling somebody they are wrong, and need to be fixed.  Not the method of how you attempt fixing them.