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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 142769 times)

Reelya

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1155 on: January 19, 2017, 06:23:09 pm »

Cool, I'd be honored if you found something I wrote useful enough to borrow from. Feel free to do whatever, edit it as needed.

Tiruin

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1156 on: January 19, 2017, 09:53:53 pm »

-snip-
In a more foundational sense--it's the connections of concepts being attached to what's being observed. :O hence why there's this feeling going about; there's a thought towards that feeling which gives it sense, but at the speed of thought at the time, it may not be directly apparent...So other than being a feminist thread, it's also a cognitive point. :P

Cognitive, in the same sense in what's going on with people who attack other people by using a label instead of understanding the context (and...being updated with knowledge, but that's another story) like in Reelya's post; it oversimplifies an idea that by itself already stands reasonable. :-\
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1157 on: January 30, 2017, 03:20:35 pm »


(I apologize for the inconvenience, but somebody who I know personally has been monitoring what I post, and I'm sick of it. I am fine, though. Wasn't 43.5 (a.b) a good release?)

(Once I can get them to stop it, I'll post the actual content of the message. Until then, the crypto-savvy will know what I said, and someone I know personally will be annoyed.)

(Edit: It's probably been long enough.)

Spoiler: shhhh (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:38:21 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1158 on: January 30, 2017, 03:47:21 pm »

Hah, no, I'm far better than that fool.

Of course it isn't some cipher I'd trust in a real situation though, I'm not trying to make it impossible.

In fact, the key is right here.

Sorry. :P I just really like making puzzles. I remember when I set up this whole mystery in 1st grade, leaving clues everywhere that people would need to work together to decipher...

...and half the clues were just thrown in the trash. *sigh*
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 03:53:46 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

TempAcc

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1159 on: January 30, 2017, 03:54:23 pm »

Why, yes dozebom, I too enjoy eating babies, making tunes with the sound of old lady's bones cracking under pressure, and giving good reviews to kanye west's records. Have you heard about agent 496? What a dweeb right? Couldn't even eat that thai kid by himself, I had to clean up the leftovers, too. Lets meet in the 8945th meeting of reptilians next thursday so we can watch 3d anime on my sentient tv, my AI has become very proficient at simulating tsundere behavior.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1160 on: January 30, 2017, 03:58:09 pm »

Quote
Femininity could be encouraged for women, but also considered to be negative.

More often then not it isn't so much that femininity is considered a negative so much that it is extremely restrictive and considered a negative in most situations.

There is a strong idea, even today, that femininity and, for example, being a soldier are opposing ideas. There is more of an idea that femininity and masculinity compliment each other but are mutually exclusive (Which is easy to see why that ended up being a harmful view overall)

It is uncommon that femininity or masculinity gets a blanket idea of negativity.

Though at the same time... Back when women fashion was incredibly dangerous there was a LOT of criticism put towards it. Then again that isn't that femininity is a negative so much that one aspect of it is.

Sorry just an aside.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1161 on: January 30, 2017, 04:48:20 pm »

I find it essential to have consistent and precise terminology in these discussions. I would like to distinguish between inherent negativity and cultural negativity. Ferex:

  • Expecting every woman to cut off her legs would be an inherently negative gender role.
  • Expecting every woman to dye their hair purple would not. However, if purple is considered to be a negative trait, then the gender role is (componentially) culturally negative.
  • Expecting women to never have orange hair, because orange and feminine contradict each other, indicates that orange hair is (gender-specific) culturally negative.

(I have been discussing componential cultural values regarding gender roles - purple is bad, and women should have purple hair. This is distinct from gender-specific cultural values regarding gender roles - orange is good, and additionally, it's okay for men, but bad for women. These are obviously difficult to tell apart in practice, but imagine an androgynous person doing something. Is that thing bad? Then any corresponding gender role will be componentially negative. Otherwise, it will be gender-specifically negative.)

Many gender roles will be "merely" culturally negative at first sight, rather than inherently negative, but they are often related to a deeper inherently negative role. Ferex, submissive is bad, right? Culturally, we consider submissiveness to be a generally bad thing, and objectively, submissiveness means that you're less likely to stand up for your rights, making oppressive gender roles more likely to persist. That is, submissiveness is both culturally negative and inherently negative.

Additionally, we have restrictiveness, which is entirely orthogonal to inherent and cultural negativity. Restrictiveness represents how many choices a gender role conflicts with, the degree to which this conflict is considered negative, and (possibly) the degree to which the conflicting choice is prevented by society, whether coercively or directly.

Quote
Femininity could be encouraged for women, but also considered to be negative.

More often then not it isn't so much that femininity is considered a negative so much that it is extremely restrictive
Indeed, I might agree that the feminine gender role is more restrictive than the masculine gender role. (This has certainly been historically accurate, but I'm less sure of it today. The restrictiveness variable alone could be lower for women than for men, considering that it is a composite of "how many choices are off-limits" and "how bad is 'off-limits' anyway" and "what happens if I go off-limits". A masculine woman would, perhaps, be less ostracized today than a feminine woman. But femininity itself - what does that cover? Is it less inclusive than masculinity? I'm not sure; if it is, then the composite of restrictiveness might still be lower for women.)

...and considered a negative in most situations.
I have no idea what this means. Are you saying that restrictiveness is considered negative? If so, that's a personal statement of value, which is distinct from my analysis of the cultural values associated with gender roles and their violation. In less compact language, you're saying that femininity is bad because it keeps women from doing things (which somewhat resembles my inherent negativity concept). I'm saying that femininity (or components of such) is considered to be bad by contemporary Western culture (or tends to be).

There is a strong idea, even today, that femininity and, for example, being a soldier are opposing ideas.
This has several components: first, we've got the restrictiveness concept present, in that society tends to prevent women from becoming soldiers. Second, we notice that society assigns "woman and soldier" a negative value - . Then we have the general negative gender role ("woman should not fight") which corresponds to the general positive gender role ("woman should be weak and unable to defend herself") which is inherently harmful to women, mostly because it is related to violence and submissiveness/passiveness (i.e., not standing up for one's self).

There is more of an idea that femininity and masculinity compliment each other but are mutually exclusive (Which is easy to see why that ended up being a harmful view overall)
Ah, but we can imagine the following scenario: women can do X (so says society). Men can do A, B, C, D, E, ... W, Y, Z. It certainly harms both men and women, but it harms women far more.

It is uncommon that femininity or masculinity gets a blanket idea of negativity.
I disagree, although we have the complicated concept of....

This is hard to explain or define. Suppose that purple hair is bad. Everybody knows that purple is associated with passiveness, or sluttiness, or unintelligence, or something like that. But it is more accepted for a woman to have purple hair than for a woman to have brown hair.

So at the same time we have positive values (woman-has-purple) and negative values (purple-is-bad). I'm not sure if this is actually real, but it seems pretty likely - femininity, or aspects thereof, are commonly associated with negative things (stupid, bitchy, slutty, et cetera).

Though at the same time... Back when women fashion was incredibly dangerous there was a LOT of criticism put towards it. Then again that isn't that femininity is a negative so much that one aspect of it is.
Ah, so when you say "dangerous" you're referring to inherent negativity.

Sorry just an aside.
Sorry, I just wrote a huge analysis only somewhat related to your aside. Still, it was fun and I had a few insights while writing it. (I only added the componential/gender-specific distinction at the end, when I realized that it was necessary to describe the difference between woman-soldier-bad and submissiveness-bad+woman-submissive-good.)

(What in the four hells... over three double-spaced pages?)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 04:53:43 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1162 on: January 30, 2017, 04:56:43 pm »

"Considered negative in most situations"

I mean that femininity outside the limit roles women were prescribed, is considered a negative. If women "shouldn't" be window washers, for example, then femininity is considered a negative trait for window washers.

As for "Dangerous fashion" I mean that in a very literal sense. Back when women's fashion could kill and damage a woman. For example lead based makeup.

Quote
femininity, or aspects thereof, are commonly associated with negative things (stupid, bitchy, slutty, et cetera).

Yes there are a lot of negative associations but the same goes with masculinity (though probably more to femininity)

But there is a difference between that... and a blanket negativity. A sort of "Being feminine is bad for anyone". Which probably has happened before, but not in American history that I can remember.
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Rolan7

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1163 on: January 30, 2017, 05:00:48 pm »

Uh no I think masculinity has more negative connotations.  Femininity is put on a pedestal, much to the detriment of women and also deprecating men.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1164 on: January 30, 2017, 05:27:52 pm »

Uh no I think masculinity has more negative connotations.  Femininity is put on a pedestal, much to the detriment of women and also deprecating men.

It is more situation wise that I refer to it. In the job market.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1165 on: January 31, 2017, 04:16:36 pm »

I also disagree flat out with that assessment, Rolan. The culturally ideal forms of masculininity and femininity, historically speaking, are both lauded. Deviations from such are derided. Furthermore, many of the characteristics associated with femininity are negatively connotated in an indivualistic society. Obviously this varies based on locale and medium, but such traits as dependency, irrationality, submissiveness, manipulation, underhandedness, servility, physical frailty/weakness, and a lack of ambition are all traditionally considered feminine.

Yes, certainly, there's positive traits associated with it too, some of which are semi-modern reinterpretations of those traditional traits; cooperation, emotional expressiveness, understanding, supportive, humility, nurturing, subtlety. Feminism has done quite a bit to try and portray women in a more positive light and point out the flaws in a traditionally masculine approach, as well as enable women to act in non-feminine ways, and whether any individual interpretation goes too far and begins just degrading men in the name of uplifting women is a case-by-case question.

But for the general case of masculine vs. feminine traits, in the overall/generalized view of our society, still favors masculinity. (Current) capitalism favors ambition, a certain kind of ruthlessness, and pure logic, which is more associated with men, even while serenity rather than anger is more associated with women. Yes, that is contradictory. Individualism favors independence, ambition, and the active rather than passive. Most moral systems dislike manipulation, which is the typical example of how women are portrayed smarter than men in media; by getting one over on them or manipulating them into doing their will, often followed by "men are so gullible/such idiots/so easy to manipulate" with a co-conspirator to drive the point home. We can find it funny because it's usually fairly harmless.

I disagree about most any of these traits being inherently negative. Even things like masculinity and wrathfulness are rooted in honor culture where reputation for vengeance is perhaps one of the only ways to have security for yourself and family. Rationality is perhaps an inherently positive trait in my opinion, but that's because I'm very logically oriented, and being able to express one's emotions/factor in emotions is a very important skill for social interaction, which, in a species like ours, is perhaps the single most useful ability to have.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:25:52 pm by Rolepgeek »
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martinuzz

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1166 on: January 31, 2017, 04:21:37 pm »

Some good news in these times of Trumple. The BSA changed their policy. From now on transgenders are allowed to join the Boy Scouts.
http://scoutingnewsroom.org/press-releases/bsa-addresses-gender-identity/
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1167 on: January 31, 2017, 04:24:39 pm »

Woot!

I checked the Girl Scouts. It seems that they not only allow trans girls in - they turned down $100 thousand dollars because it came with a stipulation of "will not be used to help trans youth". Truly a great sign of alliance, in this capitalist society.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:26:19 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
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Sigtext!

martinuzz

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1168 on: January 31, 2017, 04:25:35 pm »

Woot!

...I'm not optimistic enough to bet that the GSA has already allowed trans girls in.

Edit: I checked. My faith in humanity has improved somewhat. Woot!
Yeah with the girl scouts it hasn't been an issue for some time now.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1169 on: January 31, 2017, 04:41:50 pm »

I'm refining my terminology. "Componential cultural values" are now gender-independent cultural values, and "gender-specific cultural values" are now gender-dependent cultural values.

I mean that femininity outside the limit roles women were prescribed, is considered a negative. If women "shouldn't" be window washers, for example, then femininity is considered a negative trait for window washers.
Ahh... that's an interesting perspective. So you're saying that there is an expectation for all window washers to be less feminine, whether they're male or female? That seems to indicate a desire for "consistency" or homogeneity in gender traits - society doesn't like the contradiction of a woman having a "masculine" job and presenting as feminine.

As for "Dangerous fashion" I mean that in a very literal sense. Back when women's fashion could kill and damage a woman. For example lead based makeup.
Ah, then that's inherent intrinsic negativity. (term refinement is fun)
Quote
femininity, or aspects thereof, are commonly associated with negative things (stupid, bitchy, slutty, et cetera).

Yes there are a lot of negative associations but the same goes with masculinity (though probably more to femininity)
Oh, indeed, there are a variety of negative gender traits/insults/pejoratives - for men and women, whether they're defying gender or adhering to the stereotypes too much. Feels like Morton's Fork.
But there is a difference between that... and a blanket negativity. A sort of "Being feminine is bad for anyone". Which probably has happened before, but not in American history that I can remember.
Well, that's why I specified componential negativity. Femininity is more than the sum of its parts, or at least that's how society sees it. We can look at more subtle trends by analyzing the most common gender traits for men and women and determining how valuable or negative society sees each to be.

Uh no I think masculinity has more negative connotations.  Femininity is put on a pedestal, much to the detriment of women and also deprecating men.
This is, naturally, dependent on your experiences. Femininity and masculinity have both been praised and reviled - I'm not looking at the overall feeling of "is this good" people have about masculinity/femininity, I'm looking at the values associated with each component of gender.

Uh no I think masculinity has more negative connotations.  Femininity is put on a pedestal, much to the detriment of women and also deprecating men.

It is more situation wise that I refer to it. In the job market.
Hmm... it might also depend on the situation, yes. I was considering only the individual culture that one experiences (which is, of course, different for people who grow up in different places and times), but the context of the values should not be ignored.

I wonder if you could measure how much society values jobs/home (ferex) by looking how closely society's values match with the "necessary" traits for success in each situation, or the traits that are associated with each situation.

I also disagree flat out with that assessment, Rolan. The culturally ideal forms of masculininity and femininity, historically speaking, are both lauded. Deviations from such are derided. Furthermore, many of the characteristics associated with femininity are negatively connotated in an indivualistic society. Obviously this varies based on locale and medium, but such traits as dependency, irrationality, submissiveness, manipulation, underhandedness, servility, physical frailty/weakness, and a lack of ambition are all traditionally considered feminine.

Yes, certainly, there's positive traits associated with it too, some of which are semi-modern reinterpretations of those traditional traits; cooperation, emotional expressiveness, understanding, supportive, humility, nurturing, subtlety. Feminism has done quite a bit to try and portray women in a more positive light and point out the flaws in a traditionally masculine approach, as well as enable women to act in non-feminine ways, and whether any individual interpretation goes too far and begins just degrading men in the name of uplifting women is a case-by-case question.

But for the general case of masculine vs. feminine traits, in the overall/generalized view of our society, still favors masculinity. (Current) capitalism favors ambition, a certain kind of ruthlessness, and pure logic, which is more associated with men, even while serenity rather than anger is more associated with women. Yes, that is contradictory. Individualism favors independence, ambition, and the active rather than passive. Most moral systems dislike manipulation, which is the typical example of how women are portrayed smarter than men in media; by getting one over on them or manipulating them into doing their will, often followed by "men are so gullible/such idiots/so easy to manipulate" with a co-conspirator to drive the point home. We can find it funny because it's usually fairly harmless.

I disagree about most any of these traits being inherently negative. Even things like masculinity and wrathfulness are rooted in honor culture where reputation for vengeance is perhaps one of the only ways to have security for yourself and family. Rationality is perhaps an inherently positive trait in my opinion, but that's because I'm very logically oriented, and being able to express one's emotions/factor in emotions is a very important skill for social interaction, which, in a species like ours, is perhaps the single most useful ability to have.

Somewhat related: I talked with my father about this. (He's a sociologist.) He pointed out that I had called certain traits "inherently or intrinsically negative", which was actually very hard to determine; any classification is more likely to reveal my own cultural biases than some fundamental non-cultural value.

When you say "most of these are not inherently negative", it sounds like you're talking about "intrinsic negativity", which I discussed before. (Cutting all women's legs off, et cetera.) But it is preceded by a discussion of cultural values. I'm a bit confused. Do you mean inherently culturally negative or inherently "objectively" negative?
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!
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