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[Aklyon]

I haven't played men of war and have no idea why this is being such a big argument. But I liked supcom.

[umiman]

Wait a second....

1. units having multiple weapons,
- Supcom had that on almost everything. But they're just robots.

2. being able to get knocked in the air and fall prone,
- Supcom had that too. So did all the other games in the series. In fact they had physics and would damage units if they hit them. Of course, they're just robots and not humans.

3. getting pinned down and demoralized,
- Robots can't get artificially pinned down and demoralized sadly (or not). Only humans for now.

4. or even the gratuitous fatalities
- I think in a normal Supcom game, at least 10,000 poor robot souls get brutally maimed and destroyed. Only one human dies though generally, unless you purposely choose to annihilate the building complexes on the map. With a nuke. Or 200. To spell DICK.

I think I understand what is going on here. I think this is racism!!!! #RobotLivesMatter #MakeRobotsGreatAgain #DarkAgeofTechnology

[Parsely]

Check your robo privilege you robo haters.

[Frumple]

Doesn't have gratuitous fatalities they says. In TA you could literally blow chunks of machine from one end of the map to the other, and actually have the flying bits damage whatever they hit when they land. It was a thing of beauty the first time you blew up an airship a few screens away only to have the falling debris manage to nick off the last bit of health on one of your damaged buildings.

I actually can't think of another game where pieces of destroyed units are capable of flying over the hills and actually hitting things for (admittedly minor, usually) effect. I'm sure they're out there and I just haven't played them, but I can't think of any.

Though I'll totally say this hypothetical mass scale DoW having moments where a warboss's head gets knocked into the distance and lands on a commissar, killing them instantly, would be amazing. Glory to the first man to- splat

[KingofstarrySkies]

Virtz's comment actually physically hurts me.

Good.

I wasn't even talking about special quickbar abilities. I mean basic actions, like units having multiple weapons, being able to get knocked in the air and fall prone, getting pinned down and demoralized, or even the gratuitous fatalities. Those sortsa details that make a video game more exciting than an excel spreadsheet or a MOBA. Details that something like Total War or Men of War actually feature.

Point is I don't care how massive it is if the basic unit behaviour is no more complex than in Dune 2. It doesn't look good or interesting. It's moving further away from something resembling realism and closer to gameyness. For someone suggesting this mid-small scale combat is regressing the RTS genre, you guys are sure proposing a return to 1997.

First off, don't be a dick about it, guy. Second, it's 40k. No one is expecting it to be very realistic.

[Akura]

Yeah, that's a Knight, not a Titan. Still massive and stompy, but something like a Warlord would cover half the map on its own.

There is an entire DoW1 skirmish map based around a half buried Titan. Forgot which class, might be Imperator.

Winter Assault's campaign is entirely about a half-buried Imperator. The mission where you repair it, it takes up at least half the map.

The Imperial Guard's headquarters mission also had an Emperor Titan's Hellstorm cannon that the Imperial Guard uses to defend their base. It's mounted with a very poor firing arc: a canyon that covers the final approach to their main base, plus a good part of their base's flank, possibly created by a test-firing of the Hellstorm. When it fires, it vaporizes everything in the canyon. Imagine that on a massive walking platform, firing at you from above.

[umiman]

Interestingly enough, while the Imperium has regressed backwards in technology and seems to be incapable of making a lot of the tech they used to be able to do... this doesn't apply to titans.

So they can make titans till kingdom come. It just takes them years / decades / centuries for each one.

[Kydrasz]

It makes me sad that the Imperial Guard won't get a campaign. I hope they get a Winter Assault for DoW 3 at least.

[Virtz]

Wait a second....

1. units having multiple weapons,
- Supcom had that on almost everything. But they're just robots.

2. being able to get knocked in the air and fall prone,
- Supcom had that too. So did all the other games in the series. In fact they had physics and would damage units if they hit them. Of course, they're just robots and not humans.

3. getting pinned down and demoralized,
- Robots can't get artificially pinned down and demoralized sadly (or not). Only humans for now.

4. or even the gratuitous fatalities
- I think in a normal Supcom game, at least 10,000 poor robot souls get brutally maimed and destroyed. Only one human dies though generally, unless you purposely choose to annihilate the building complexes on the map. With a nuke. Or 200. To spell DICK.

I think I understand what is going on here. I think this is racism!!!! #RobotLivesMatter #MakeRobotsGreatAgain #DarkAgeofTechnology

Are you sure something can get knocked down without dying? Cause I don't remember that happening and can't find an example. Especially since most units appear to be vehicles.

And by fatalities I meant the finisher animations. Something to make unit combat behaviour at least look more complex than it did 20 years ago, where two guys would bonk each other over the head without flinching till one's HPs ran out and he fell over.

Virtz's comment actually physically hurts me.

Good.

I wasn't even talking about special quickbar abilities. I mean basic actions, like units having multiple weapons, being able to get knocked in the air and fall prone, getting pinned down and demoralized, or even the gratuitous fatalities. Those sortsa details that make a video game more exciting than an excel spreadsheet or a MOBA. Details that something like Total War or Men of War actually feature.

Point is I don't care how massive it is if the basic unit behaviour is no more complex than in Dune 2. It doesn't look good or interesting. It's moving further away from something resembling realism and closer to gameyness. For someone suggesting this mid-small scale combat is regressing the RTS genre, you guys are sure proposing a return to 1997.

First off, don't be a dick about it, guy. Second, it's 40k. No one is expecting it to be very realistic.

I only respond in kind. I find saying a post physically hurts you to be kinda rude. Like saying your post just gave me an aneurysm.

And yeah, sure, nobody expects it to be 100% realistic as in the real world, but people can expect it to be "realistic" according to the logic described in the related fiction. It's called verisimilitude. Since the novels don't describe space marines as being automatons that walk in a straight line and fire mindlessly till HPs go away, I'd expect more from its ideal depiction than SupCom has to offer. And while Dawn of War ain't perfect either, it's sure way closer to it.

[nenjin]

It makes me sad that the Imperial Guard won't get a campaign. I hope they get a Winter Assault for DoW 3 at least.

Look at it this way: to do Imperial Guard right you shouldn't shove them in besides 3 other Major factions.

I dunno though. Imperial Guard is exactly the kind of neck beardy thing I don't think people trying to make AAA 40k games really understand. DoW 2 didn't get IG, after all. They were just cannon fodder for missions.

[Frumple]

Are you sure something can get knocked down without dying? Cause I don't remember that happening and can't find an example. Especially since most units appear to be vehicles.

You could actually upend units entirely in TA, nevermind stuff that came after it. It was fairly astoundingly difficult to do, because most of the weapons capable of doing it were significantly more likely to just explode whatever got hit, but it could happen. Can't say how possible it was in successor games (save spring, where the better engine made it much easier to code, even if not many people did so far as I can recall), though, as I haven't played much Supcom and no PA.

... also, pretty much every TA line game is roughly half as much mech (i.e. humanoid-ish robot) as it is vehicle, at least insofar as land based units go. Honestly, I'm kinda' wondering if you've actually played any of the games if that's the observation you made

[Aklyon]

Theres basically three kinds of land units in the TA-line: Mechs, vehicles, and giant weapons.

[Virtz]

Are you sure something can get knocked down without dying? Cause I don't remember that happening and can't find an example. Especially since most units appear to be vehicles.

You could actually upend units entirely in TA, nevermind stuff that came after it. It was fairly astoundingly difficult to do, because most of the weapons capable of doing it were significantly more likely to just explode whatever got hit, but it could happen. Can't say how possible it was in successor games (save spring, where the better engine made it much easier to code, even if not many people did so far as I can recall), though, as I haven't played much Supcom and no PA.

... also, pretty much every TA line game is roughly half as much mech (i.e. humanoid-ish robot) as it is vehicle, at least insofar as land based units go. Honestly, I'm kinda' wondering if you've actually played any of the games if that's the observation you made

Was using SupCom for reference, since that's the last of this kinda thing I played. And that's indeed mostly non-mechs, as far as I can see from the wiki. And I don't recall any of what I mentioned happening in it as far as I've played.

[Cthulhu]

Supcom didn't interest me cause it was just robutts.  They're worse than anteaters.

That's why I like Dawn of War, the carnage.  I liked the moba shit in the original DoW2 because it was all special individual squads and there was lots of cool gear and shit to customize them, it was more like an action RPG than a moba or an RTS, and the campaign was made special for that faction.

Retribution they made everybody playable but everybody was bland as hell and it was the same game no matter who you picked.

[KingofstarrySkies]

That's why I dislike the hell out of DoWII. Not a fan of the direction it went in.