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Detoxicated's Games of Divinity

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Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]  (Read 71705 times)

Rolepgeek

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #945 on: May 27, 2016, 11:37:22 am »

Considering the possibility of price reducing traits,  it could cost quite a bit less than that. Though it would still be larger than the equivalent node, I believe, which is a bit silly. Especially as it's effect is more pronounced. Though keep in mind that you can choose the appearance the Node has, so a Leave Node in the form of a giant tower is still a possibility. Plus,  the trait is just so specific. Same reason I don't want the acoustic and sharpness traits.

I think people also get worried about having a city that's nigh invulnerable to conventional methods of attack.

But yes,  I understand how it could be annoying to deal with everyone second guessing your stuff and having a say in what you get to create.
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Demonic Spoon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #946 on: May 27, 2016, 11:42:15 am »

Considering the possibility of price reducing traits,  it could cost quite a bit less than that. Though it would still be larger than the equivalent node, I believe, which is a bit silly. Especially as it's effect is more pronounced. Though keep in mind that you can choose the appearance the Node has, so a Leave Node in the form of a giant tower is still a possibility. Plus,  the trait is just so specific. Same reason I don't want the acoustic and sharpness traits.

I think people also get worried about having a city that's nigh invulnerable to conventional methods of attack.

But yes,  I understand how it could be annoying to deal with everyone second guessing your stuff and having a say in what you get to create.
I don't see cost reducing traits that would apply to artifacts
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Happy Demon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #947 on: May 27, 2016, 11:56:52 am »

Considering the possibility of price reducing traits,  it could cost quite a bit less than that. Though it would still be larger than the equivalent node, I believe, which is a bit silly. Especially as it's effect is more pronounced. Though keep in mind that you can choose the appearance the Node has, so a Leave Node in the form of a giant tower is still a possibility. Plus,  the trait is just so specific. Same reason I don't want the acoustic and sharpness traits.

I think people also get worried about having a city that's nigh invulnerable to conventional methods of attack.

But yes,  I understand how it could be annoying to deal with everyone second guessing your stuff and having a say in what you get to create.
I don't see cost reducing traits that would apply to artifacts
Cost reducing traits can apply to artifacts, I'm unsure if there are any right now, but KJP did say a godslayer can be made for less than 60 Essence if you make it more fragile.
I'm guessing Endurance -x translates to less durability for artifacts.
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piratejoe

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #948 on: May 27, 2016, 12:53:31 pm »

Each peace aura effects ~31,416 square kilometres. Multiplied by 400 that's 12,566,400. The surface of the earth according to google is 510.1 million km², way larger than the total peace area.
I really don't think anyone wants a place on the planet about the size of Denmark that no one can fight in.
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Stirk

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #949 on: May 27, 2016, 01:42:44 pm »

Yeah no, dropping out.
This is sudden. Why?
The playerbase, how the game is setup to work (the players make the rules), slow updates, insufficiently detailed updates.

You want to do something interesting? Imma gonna oppose that because everything has to be nice and boring and bland.

Some of those are valid complaints, but your towers where opposed because people like things boring. They where opposed because the trait you wanted to make was overpowered for the price and super abuse-able. They work fine on a tower, but they can be used for anything. For example, giving this to an otherwise mundane race makes an army who nobody can ever fight purposefully. Each one would only cost .0544E each, they are cheap enough that you could make 20 with a single essence, throwing them at any and all conflicts that pop up to end them immediately and cheaply. With your starting 20E, you could make ~400 of these things, giving you 40,000 km of peace. The Circumference of the Earth is 40,075, which would mean you basically had purchased world peace with your starting income. And that is without giving it negative traits, seeing as how it could never be attacked by mundane means there are plenty it could have without issue.

Some of your complaints are valid, but the tower was simply a bad idea in its current form.
I proposed a artifact trait after people were opposed to my peace towers in their original form, with the trait costing [x15]. Artifacts have a base cost of 1 essence, meaning that each tower would cost 15 essence. People were still completely opposed to it. If you get more than two opposals for a proposal like this it's basically a death knell because good luck actually getting enough support to overcome the opposals and pass it.

It's very clear that price isn't the problem, it's more a case of "We don't want you to do that, and because of the way the game works, we can prevent you from doing that, no matter how much essence you're willing to spend on it. Isn't this fun! Yay for not being able to do anything distinctive or interesting due to oppressive peer pressure!"

EDIT: And you're math is off. Each peace aura effects ~31,416 square kilometres. Multiplied by 400 that's 12,566,400. The surface of the earth according to google is 510.1 million km², way larger than the total peace area.

I didn't say it could cover the surface entirely, I said it could cover the circumfrance. That is to say, you could make a mobile equator of forced peace. Give them a quick flying mount and you have a laser scanner of peace able to stop any reasonable sized conflict the instant it starts. If you are even a little clever with it, it is absurdly easy to abuse.

And just because other people don't like one of your ideas (for in character, out of character, or balance reasons) doesn't make them "bland and boring", especially when you do nothing to argue your case besides rage quitting. Thinking it does is kinda childish.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #950 on: May 27, 2016, 03:37:07 pm »

See, the real issue here I think is the fact that it flat prevents the violence, rather than causing a consequence. If it forbade conflict in the area, with Peacekeepers ready to deal with troublemakers, that would be another story, I suspect.
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hector13

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #951 on: May 27, 2016, 04:04:59 pm »

There's nothing stopping us smashing the tower to rubble after it's made, I s'pose, or otherwise suppressing the effect.
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Happy Demon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #952 on: May 27, 2016, 04:38:44 pm »

There's nothing stopping us smashing the tower to rubble after it's made, I s'pose, or otherwise suppressing the effect.
Unless they set up some sort of protection field around it. Or just having the tower builders repair the tower every time it's damaged.
Thus requiring us to destroy it entirely in one massive attack that end up costing more than the tower itself.

I'd rather just have it not fundamentally change the workings in an area. Flat out denying violence will just ruin things.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #953 on: May 27, 2016, 04:45:36 pm »

This is an RPG, not an MMO, Happy Demon. The mechanics will never be perfect, and thus far, most of it's been abstracted. People abusing the system is not something we actually need to worry about, particularly when a council proposal can easily undo 'game-breaking' features.

I don't think the aesthetic of such a device really fit in, not does one that large add much to the story.

But hey, if people want to just leave, that's their prerogative.
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Demonic Spoon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #954 on: May 27, 2016, 05:09:40 pm »

I didn't say it could cover the surface entirely, I said it could cover the circumfrance. That is to say, you could make a mobile equator of forced peace. Give them a quick flying mount and you have a laser scanner of peace able to stop any reasonable sized conflict the instant it starts. If you are even a little clever with it, it is absurdly easy to abuse.
Neato. I wasn't planning to use it like that. You pointed out the potential abuses, preventing me from making a single stationary building. Good for you. I hope your god feels safe now that he has stopped the potential hordes of peace planes flying overhead throwing their peace bombs everywhere, oh wait no one was planning to do that.

Quote
And just because other people don't like one of your ideas (for in character, out of character, or balance reasons) doesn't make them "bland and boring", especially when you do nothing to argue your case. Thinking it does is kinda childish.
I never called the people bland and boring, and your attempts to strawman me are actually rather insulting. I was saying that the system as set up, encourages you to take bland and boring actions because they're the only ones that get approved.

In addition, I would be more inclined to argue with the people if they did more than post single word "oppose"'s or such lines as "There is no circumstance where this trait should ever be allowed.", neatly shutting down any discussion I might have with them. Having to ask each time why they oppose your proposal is not something you need to do since they should have said that in the first place. And yes, I myself, in a fit of petty vengeance, did also post one word opposals instead of espousing my valid reasons for opposing said proposals, because if people do it to me I'll do it right back. I admit this fault.

Quote
besides rage quitting
This isn't rage-quitting because people didn't like my peacetowers, this is me stopping playing because the game simply isn't fun to me for several different reasons, which if even only one or two of them weren't present, would allow me to still get some enjoyment out of the game. If we didn't need to wait several days to get told that we didn't do anything this tick (or perhaps the gm could even actually contact us beforehand so we don't effectively waste an entire tick!) or actually got some narrative on our actions encouraging us to post more than just bareposts bold action-text, or if the the system was better designed or if the playerbase was more cool with actually allowing quirky or different stuff. Yet none of these ors are and so this game isn't for me. I'll probably still skim the updates and such from time to time.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 05:18:42 pm by Demonic Spoon »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #955 on: May 27, 2016, 05:20:21 pm »

I don't really want to have to list out my reasons in order to oppose something. Sometimes I just don't like it, for one.
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Demonic Spoon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #956 on: May 27, 2016, 05:23:33 pm »

I don't really want to have to list out my reasons in order to oppose something. Sometimes I just don't like it, for one.
Okay, but have thought about the proposer feels? He makes a proposal, in the hopes of getting it allowed, only for some random god to come along and tell him "no". Why did the god do this? He doesn't know. Is there some irreconciliable ethical difference between the two of them that would make discussion pointless? Should he even bother asking the reason? If the other god couldn't even be bothered to explain why, surely they would be too apathetic to change their vote? Perhaps the god doesn't even have a reason, ruining the proposers grand plans on a whim. And then several other gods come along and tell him "no" too, with the same lack of explanation.

Are you having fun yet?
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Detoxicated

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #957 on: May 27, 2016, 05:36:48 pm »

Yes very funr game. .. You never even reacted to my node idea so why was trat?  Dont quit i really like Yourk god
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Demonic Spoon

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #958 on: May 27, 2016, 05:48:20 pm »

Yes very funr game. .. You never even reacted to my node idea so why was trat?  Dont quit i really like Yourk god
Because Detoxicated, if I did make my serenity nodes radiate a peace aura, and actually made the nodes big, it would immediately just be dogpiled by opposals like my peace tower was. I thank you for the suggestion, and it is indeed something I missed.

Once again, my problem with the game isn't that my specific cool idea didn't get approved by the council, it's the system itself.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 05:50:54 pm by Demonic Spoon »
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Stirk

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Re: Ye Gods 3: Actual Lite OOC [21/30]
« Reply #959 on: May 27, 2016, 06:05:53 pm »

Quote
Neato. I wasn't planning to use it like that. You pointed out the potential abuses, preventing me from making a single stationary building. Good for you. I hope your god feels safe now that he has stopped the potential hordes of peace planes flying overhead throwing their peace bombs everywhere, oh wait no one was planning to do that.

Oh? In that case, Munr03 wants to make a Bomb trait: (13.6) Blows up everything in 100km. We only plan on using this to dig a single hole and then never use it again, why is everyone saying it is a horrible trait? Once it becomes a trait, the potential for abuse is there. Heck, it is overpowered for stationary objects as is. We have no reason to allow it in just because "Nobody plans on abusing it at teh moment!1!"


Quote
I never called the people bland and boring, and your attempts to strawman me are actually rather insulting. I was saying that the system as set up, encourages you to take bland and boring actions because they're the only ones that get approved.

In addition, I would be more inclined to argue with the people if they did more than post single word "oppose"'s or such lines as "There is no circumstance where this trait should ever be allowed.", neatly shutting down any discussion I might have with them. Having to ask each time why they oppose your proposal is not something you need to do since they should have said that in the first place. And yes, I myself, in a fit of petty vengeance, did also post one word opposals instead of espousing my valid reasons for opposing said proposals, because if people do it to me I'll do it right back. I admit this fault.

It certainly sounds like you implied everyone else was making the game bland and boring. Is that untrue? "The game is bland and boring because my pet project got shot down!11!" is blaming everyone else for being bland and boring.

If you want your proposals to pass, you have to argue for them. Even if the players love them, most God's will hate something like this. How do you expect a God Of War/Enchanted Weapons to feel about an aura that forces peace? In an absurd area, for cheap? Of course they opposed it. People should probably explain why they oppose things more, but that is hardly ruining the game forever.

Quote
This isn't rage-quitting because people didn't like my peacetowers, this is me stopping playing because the game simply isn't fun to me for several different reasons, which if even only one or two of them weren't present, would allow me to still get some enjoyment out of the game. If we didn't need to wait several days to get told that we didn't do anything this tick (or perhaps the gm could even actually contact us beforehand so we don't effectively waste an entire tick!) or actually got some narrative on our actions encouraging us to post more than just bareposts bold action-text, or if the the system was better designed or if the playerbase was more cool with actually allowing quirky or different stuff. Yet none of these ors are and so this game isn't for me. I'll probably still skim the updates and such from time to time.

There is plenty new and different stuff. At this point, your little towers are the only Inherent Magic that has been shot down. If you don't want to be told you did nothing, how about trying to do something? I know that must be complicated, but I am sure you could pull it off if you wanted. Do you really expect KJP to PM everyone to say "You haven't done anything this tick, are you sure you don't want to do anything?". It certainly feels like a ragequit, and saying it isn't really doesn't change that fact.

Quote
Okay, but have thought about the proposer feels? He makes a proposal, in the hopes of getting it allowed, only for some random god to come along and tell him "no". Why did the god do this? He doesn't know. Is there some irreconciliable ethical difference between the two of them that would make discussion pointless? Should he even bother asking the reason? If the other god couldn't even be bothered to explain why, surely they would be too apathetic to change their vote? Perhaps the god doesn't even have a reason, ruining the proposers grand plans on a whim. And then several other gods come along and tell him "no" too, with the same lack of explanation.

I would assume "Mildly frustrated" at worst? Any stronger emotion than that is over the top.
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