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FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY

Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with

Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards

Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with

FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

[RedKing]

No, I get that argument and there's merit to it. But whereas most of the rest of Europe has been willing to cede national sovereignty on these issues, Britain has to be the one to always opt out. It skews the rest of European supranational policymaking.

Most of the rest of Europe has not been willing, they have just been ignored. The ceding of national sovereignty has supposed to have been by referendum but they've committed themselves to ignoring democracy and now they have given themselves the powers to just keep taking more. Consider how they gave the authority for Frontex to operate in people's nations without their permission, you only have sovereignty now if you actively defy Brussels and refuse their authority as the Slavs are doing. You are familiar with the Irish referendums and the whole thing with the European Constitution and the Schengen Treaty? This to me does not suggest success, democracy or unity, and given the great success the EU has had in ruining the Eurozone without the UK, I think its dissolution or its reformation is absolutely necessary.
It would be intriguing to see the Commission reform along American Presidential lines, but I'd rather the Continentals subject themselves to the whims of think tanks without the UK you know?
Heck, so many Yuropoor nations don't even get a choice willing or not. Pretty much all of Southern Europe has been screwed over because their parliaments cannot set their own currency rates and so are wholly dependent upon the ECB for financing. Is there something to do with the different histories the Continent and the UK have had? I'm not just talking about the Continent's habit of being united under dictators every now and then, I mean in terms of democracy and taxes. Back when the Kings still had great power, the Parliament did not control any armies (least till Cromwell who chopped the King's head off, but never again), what it did control was taxes. If the King had need of financing he went to Parliament to raise taxes, and this limit was fundamental to the birth of British democracy. Another big milestone, this time with collab from the British B team in their evolution to the A(merican) team. No taxation without representation - again, because taxes found the basis of government. No laws without impartial men to enforce them, no impartial men to enforce them without payment from the state to support them, and in this manner the Prime Minister grew more powerful than the King until the King was ruler symbolically and all power was left to the PM and his mandate from his constituents. Maggie Thatcher, AKA the Iron Lady AKA the Iron Bitch, one of the things she got right that no one can argue thanks to the benefit of time - when the UK was busy debating entering the Euro precursor, its intellectual proponents claimed that the UK would descend into economic collapse if it did not join the Euro. Malvinas Thatcher up front rebuked it as an attempt to remove any teeth from national democracy, as a parliament or senate that has lost the ability to set its own budget is ruling only in name. Today with the UK being the financial capital of the world those arguments are shown to be false and the tragedy the Eurozone crisis has wreaked has shown we were fortunate to have escaped such madness. It also shows the frightening speed in which the people who pushed for a political Union have succeeded, all with such great deceit. Only when they gauged the nation states were incapable of stopping the EU did they drop the pretense that this was about free trade and not about power.

Though enough from me, what else speaks of success to you in the EU being a model you want the US to adopt? What do you find appreciable, how do you think it handles democracy or multiplicity of ethnicities? What do you find criticism worthy, what do you think Washington gains from a centralized EU?

That's....that's a fair cop. I have to confess, I'm a lot more ambivalent about the issue after considering all this. 

[Yoink]

Posting To Watch And Not Read Loud Whispers Fuckhuge Wall Of Bants

FTFY

[Sheb]

Leave.EU cannot organize a concert because the bands they wanted to book are pro-EU.

[Eisensturm]

I'd support a restructuring of the EU-model, but not a brexit.

[Loud Whispers]

I'd support a restructuring of the EU-model, but not a brexit.

What would you want restructured, what are your reservations of the EU, could they be achieved?

[Eisensturm]

I won't claim to have a solution ready, but I object to the way power is being projected and how the interests of certain economic parties are being prioritized over others.
That said I don't oppose a powerful EU, but I oppose the way the power is being used and the lack of regulation on its use/who uses it aswell.

I would prefer if the EU would run more democratically then I feel it currently is. More room for opposition parties to change things and ask for compromise, rather then being forced to leave the union if they dissent.

[Sheb]

That is really, really, really vague.

[Eisensturm]

I know. Currently at work and don't really have the time or concentration to pull up specific incidents.
Might return to this thread with a clearer head later this evening.

[notquitethere]

Great conversation with Yanis Varoufakis on the crisis in the Eurozone. His take is that Brexit (and indeed, Grexit) isn't favourable: the EU has been captured by the interests of a financial sector elite and that's pretty terrible, but it's our bulwark against another great war and that would be much worse.

[Sheb]

Your link doesn't link anywhere.

[notquitethere]

Your link doesn't link anywhere.

Should be fixed now.

[Sheb]

The Tresury published its study stating that Brexit would result in a British GDP 3.8-7.5% lower by 2030 (Depending on the scenario)

[notquitethere]

Exactly the sort of argument that I don't find compelling. I want to know what will happen politically.

[Sheb]

Marine Le Pen is coming to the UK to campaign for Brexit.

[Aklyon]

Bosting bto batch brits bargue.