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Author Topic: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)  (Read 112279 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1050 on: June 27, 2018, 12:52:15 am »

Um. ARs are not RTDs, except in the sense that monopoly is an RTD. People complain because the game is meant to be about coming up with clever designs, with an element of uncertainty, not simply seeing who can roll higher.
And, like, with stuff like 2d4 and that weird (d4+2d2-2) or whatever it is, people have improved that aspect, making extreme luck less likely. I don't think a complex card drafting system is needed.
The idea of pulling multiple cards sounds like what you can do in Draignean's system, where you have multiple dice per turn, and can either do multiple projects, or spend extra dice on a single project to get better odds.
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Doomblade187

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1051 on: June 27, 2018, 03:13:13 am »

As much as I enjoy Draig's system, I have always felt like the projects were stifling, slowing down the teams. Unfortunately, it's the long-term project based nature that makes being able to double-roll certain aspects of a project start balanced- you have more dice than can start a project per turn, and you also use them for revisions.

On that note, do you think using a 1-turn design system with, say, 5 dice, where 3 are needed to run a project but only 1 dice is needed per revision would be viable, while maintaining the ability to double-roll an efficacy of cost roll?
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Draignean

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1052 on: June 27, 2018, 03:31:49 am »

Um. ARs are not RTDs, except in the sense that monopoly is an RTD. People complain because the game is meant to be about coming up with clever designs, with an element of uncertainty, not simply seeing who can roll higher.
And, like, with stuff like 2d4 and that weird (d4+2d2-2) or whatever it is, people have improved that aspect, making extreme luck less likely. I don't think a complex card drafting system is needed.
The idea of pulling multiple cards sounds like what you can do in Draignean's system, where you have multiple dice per turn, and can either do multiple projects, or spend extra dice on a single project to get better odds.

It's the trickiest bit of an arms race, to be honest. Batreps suck (I say as I'm currently avoiding finishing mine), but this is always the part that makes me worry the most. Too much chance and you step on the toes of the part of the game that should matter most, the thoughtful design of new equipment, too little and the game degenerates into whichever side has a better encyclopedic knowledge of warfare in [INSERT TIMELINE]- at which point you can open a private salt mine whenever your interpretation differs from your player's desires. There's a buncha methods for trying to deal with the issue, but they've all got their issues.

In the deck system, the problems relate to the period and predictability of the deck. By period, I refer to the number of cards it drawn before the average is guaranteed to occur (so, for a d6 system, period 6 would indicate that the deck is composed of sequences of [1 2 3 4 5 6] with randomized internal order). Short periods make the average more consistent, but then the luck factor comes down to the predictability. Even though the average is guaranteed, the two sides may end up with drastically different abilities to predict their die roles. Lets say we're using a period six system, and empire 1 gets {[3 1 2 6 4 5] [4 3 1 2 5 6] [ 1 6 2 3 4 5]} and empire 2 gets {[6 1 5 4 2 3] [5 3 4 2 6 1] [ 5 2 6 1 4 3]}. Both sides have the exact same final average, and keep a close running average throughout each segment of the first eighteen turns. Empire 1, however, is distinctly advantaged in that it gets lucky in being able to call high rolls consistently in its the latter sections of its period, which is a rather powerful ability indeed. The deck system fixes the issue of one side getting a potentially higher average roll, but replaces it with the entirely new problem of one side being able to potentially call their rolls more easily. This problem is capable of being ameliorated via absurd complexity.*

In the bell curve system, which strives to force the average by making extreme rolls more unlikely (by using some version of multiple dice, 2d4, 2d3+1d2-2, 1d4+2d2-2, whatever) you don't actually fix the problem, you just make it more unlikely. While this is a nice balm statistically speaking, you run the risk of exaggerating extreme points when they inevitably occur. If a six is rare, and one empire happens to roll one on a really important piece of tech, it's going to be even more difficult to counter for the opposing side to drum up a counter. While the rolls are more likely to be averaged, using a bell curve means that a side who gets lucky in just the right place at just the right time can keep an advantage longer than in a uniform distribution system since it's unlikely for someone else to make a similar breakthrough.

In the lock step system, where both sides get the exact same rolls, the issues are a bit more technical. From a statistical standpoint, it is guaranteed to be ideal- both sides will always have equivalent averages, and there is no ability for one side to predict rolls with greater accuracy. It does however mean that you've got to accept some tricky situations. Research credits, for instance, would have be outside the system of random numbers- truly random elements in an otherwise harmonious system. It's also only functional for standard AR games in which both sides roll equivalent numbers of dice, but in that genre it's (in my opinion) probably your gold standard for preserving the randomness that generates anticipation and fosters dopamine and still preventing one side another from receiving an unfair boon or bitch-stick from the fickle hand of fate.




* Create a set composed of all the sets of rolls you think you're going to need. If you think you need a 1000 rolls for your arms race to end, and you're using a period 6 deck,you'll have 167 sets comprising 1-6 in random order. Form a linear array from these sets. Iterate through this array with a step size equal to the deck's period. At each iteration, generate a random integer n between 0 and period/2. Randomly interchange the values within n steps forward and n steps back, repeat until you reach the end of the array.

So,
{[6 1 5 4 2 3] [5 3 4 2 6 1] [ 5 2 6 1 4 3]}
 With 1,2, as its random values becomes
{[6 1 5 4 2 5] [3 3 4 2 1 2] [ 6 5 6 1 4 3]}

Since the interchanged blocks cannot become larger than the system's period, you're still guaranteed to stay VERY close to a perfect average within a period of 9. It's important to note that this system does not make it impossible to predict what rolls come next, just harder. To make it impossible, you need a have a random integer with a max value > period/2. Each additional step in that direction, however, erodes the deck system's ability to force an average over time and brings the array closer to a random state.

No, I haven't thought about this too much, why do you ask? (I am, however, absolutely procrastinating on the Spire Race turn by writing this)
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Parsely

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1053 on: June 27, 2018, 12:47:18 pm »

The idea of pulling multiple cards sounds like what you can do in Draignean's system, where you have multiple dice per turn, and can either do multiple projects, or spend extra dice on a single project to get better odds.
That's interesting. I'm still interested in trying it since if you have a deck of cards the probabilities are built into the deck and if you had a run of bad results that just means you're more likely to pull your good cards and be able to make a comeback, and the players who don't care about counting cards still get to make the decision of which designs get the worse results.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 12:58:04 pm by Parsely »
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Doomblade187

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1054 on: June 27, 2018, 03:04:39 pm »

I have so much temptation to use Draig's method that he just proposed. The complexity, the randomness. It's beautiful.

Regarding card counting. Iron behemoths used the deck method. Honestly, the card counting didn't ruin the game, but it did clearly show that had Tokesh not counted cards, we would have been at disadvantage.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

NUKE9.13

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1055 on: June 27, 2018, 03:17:19 pm »

Honestly, the card counting didn't ruin the game, but it did clearly show that had Tokesh not counted cards, we would have been at disadvantage.
In that case, it gave you an advantage, since Nogrania didn't really count cards much. At least, I don't remember anyone saying we should or shouldn't do a design due to what cards were left.
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Man of Paper

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1056 on: June 27, 2018, 04:21:59 pm »

Indeed the Nogranians are nobler beasts.

I'm glad we're having this discussion. What would the more experienced AR GMs think about a system like 1d6 or 2d6 with Draigs Cost/Efficacy/Bugs rolls, where the three rolls are shared between the teams, (ex. 2/4/5) but they're distributed to the three areas randomly (via 1d3 then 1d2)?

As with every one of these systems there are going to be issues, but at a glance it looks like an easy way to maintain randomness while also keeping the rolls averaged.
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Draignean

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1057 on: June 27, 2018, 04:35:24 pm »

Indeed the Nogranians are nobler beasts.

I'm glad we're having this discussion. What would the more experienced AR GMs think about a system like 1d6 or 2d6 with Draigs Cost/Efficacy/Bugs rolls, where the three rolls are shared between the teams, (ex. 2/4/5) but they're distributed to the three areas randomly (via 1d3 then 1d2)?

As with every one of these systems there are going to be issues, but at a glance it looks like an easy way to maintain randomness while also keeping the rolls averaged.

I would actually advise against doing Cost/Efficacy/Bugs. After trying the single die system in GalactiRace, I prefer it immensely.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1058 on: June 27, 2018, 05:03:04 pm »

Having done both 3 dice in wands race and a single die in iron behemoths, I agree with draig.

Cnidaros

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1059 on: June 27, 2018, 06:22:08 pm »

Having done both 3 dice in wands race and a single die in iron behemoths, I agree with draig.

Out of curiosity, why do the both of you prefer the single die system?
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Jerick

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1060 on: June 27, 2018, 06:52:21 pm »

There's a number of reasons I think it's better. For a start it avoids the frustration of something getting sixes in two categories but then having the design neutered into irrelevance due to a one in the other category. So there's never a time where you get a 6 cost, 1 efficacy, 6 bug design. The idea that you almost had something great but instead have something worthless is a terrible feeling for a player. Secondly it gives the gm more control over what goes wrong and what goes right. A hot air balloon for example is going to be cheap and insultingly simple to develop. What happens if your players roll a one on efficacy? Do you turn around and tell them that despite months of effort and considerable resources their engineers can't put a balloon into the sky? No that would be ridiculous. Having one roll as gm lets the other categories take the hit for a low roll. The players rolled low? Well now it's buggy but expensive balloon. And finally rolling three dice is fundamentally the same for the players as rolling one dice (unless you've got stuff that affects dice rolled in one category). Design goes in, random numbers come from gm and are applied to design, finished project comes out. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you're making a single d6, a single 3d6 roll, three different d6 rolls or other dice roll variant, the player's decisions are unaffected.
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Nirur Torir

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1061 on: June 27, 2018, 07:15:49 pm »

A {1} efficiency balloon doesn't have to be useless, just like a {6} efficiency on an experimental jet fighter doesn't need to be particularly good, or a {1} on bugs on a tried-and-true but next-gen basic fighter shouldn't have engines that explode if the plane takes a sharp turn.

I just had the idea of using the 3-dice system, and having each side, on game start, pick one area where they don't get failures (3-6 or 4-6 instead of 1-6). So each side would basically be making cheap and disposable equipment, or standardized stable gear, or high-end but buggy and expensive devices. Probably not a great idea, but I like the thought of it.
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Screech9791

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1062 on: June 27, 2018, 07:27:42 pm »

Can someone give me a basic ruleset for an Arms Race game?
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Khang36

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1063 on: June 27, 2018, 08:11:21 pm »

You can find the rule set in the discord
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evictedSaint

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1064 on: June 27, 2018, 08:54:20 pm »

In Wands race, 3 rolls was horrible because players only had a single revision to fix...well, anything.  In Draig's system players can have up to a potential 5 revisions per turn, so it's not as bad.

Still, as a GM, I hated having the reason for the flaw taken out of my hands.  It's better to use a single die and GM discretion to assign bugs, effectiveness, and most importantly cost

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