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Author Topic: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)  (Read 112172 times)

ConscriptFive

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1155 on: February 28, 2021, 10:23:19 am »

Short answer: Sensei
Long answer...

If you want to get historical, "weapon design bureaus" started in Spring 2013 with "The People's Weapon Design Bureau" and "The Revolutionary Design Bureau:"

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125269.0

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125538.0

10ebbor10 made a lot of really high effort games back then, among them was "The Glorious Design Bureau of the People" in Fall 2013:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131248.0

10ebbor10 then kept that genre alive in Fall 2014 with "Imperial Military Design Bureau:"

www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144578.0

But most like most forum games, the GM tended to move on to another project after a month or two.  Now this guy, Sensei, had been kicking around the forums since 2009.  He played some of these games and GM'd a few other higher effort things.  Then in Summer 2015, he released "Arms Race."  He made it PvP and more importantly, kept the game running until completion (July to November IRL).

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.0
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 10:43:16 am by ConscriptFive »
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ConscriptFive

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1156 on: July 09, 2021, 09:44:33 pm »

So a certain somebody is working on AR on the Discord.  Over the last few days, they got a lot of feedback regarding the perils of building a mechanically complicated sci-fi space/naval race..

For the benefit of posterity, here's a short compilation of advice that MoP put together:

HERE'S A COMPILED AND SORTED DOCUMENT CONTAINING ALL THE ADVICE YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN. HAVE FUN WITH IT.

On Legacy Fleets and Early Rolls:
have players design stuff that both sides then get. Downside is obviously that both sides start with identical tech, but then I assume the intent is to replace legacy gear ASAP
make them share the first set of rolls/Rerolling 1's & Failures/Sharing rolls between sides/Not telling the players what you're doing behind the scenes and cheesing your own rules to make sure they get something alright

On Setting:
if you’re a gm you also have the power to just tell the players if what they’re doing is on-brand for the setting
It’s nice to have an in universe reason for shit, but yes players will always try to subvert things. See: the entirety of embral. However, as a gm it’s totally within your rights to veto shit
(You:I'm fully prepared for then to give me some completely bullshit reason to get steel in aether and give me two pages of science backing it up to which I'll reply with "sure, that will take at least a year") Reply with no/If you give the slightest indication that it is possible, players will do it.

On Scale:
the scale of individual ship projects and production vs...50 different areas to fight over (is bad)
The game will crawl and with so much area to cover ships actually crossing one another and engaging will be uncommon at best

On Mechanical Balance/Maintaining GM Sanity:
concepts of range, fuel limitations, and interception end up trailing into a section of bookkeeping and detail that should be avoided at all costs
if you give a lore reason for a game mechanic, it becomes really hard to argue with the players when they make something that obviates that reason. If you DO end up in such a situation, crush the hovertank with excessive force.
If you don't want to track individual units, or allow players a strategy phase "push here" vote,  you need lanes
If you can describe something as (x) with more steps, you can probably just settle for (x)
Madman's game points out some inherent flaws with the individual unit/fleet thing in general when they're linked to some sort of resource system, which is what happens when you retire ships to open up resources or capacity for others? You either wind up with PJ's mess of people cheesing immediate returns and mothballing their aircraft in whichever air one that was, or madman's where the game slows because you have to wait a turn to utilize the points that got free'd up
Is there any sort of cap on what can be fielded? Because if not then it's going to be a real pain in the ass to keep track of ships after a few turns
(Post-upkeep change)  now you need to figure out what happens when people decide to clear up IC space for newer shit
What would you have you do/And what do you think you're capable of maintaining for an undefined amount of time/And what is going to keep you interested"

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1157 on: April 01, 2022, 10:56:57 am »

Who created Arms Race?
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Iris

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1158 on: April 01, 2022, 11:58:23 am »

As a genre, it was codified by Sensei; however, the design lineage can be seen in several early one-sided "design bureau" games before Sensei introduced the modern form. I wouldn't say the genre was created by anyone, only that Sensei introduced the first recognizable Arms Race. Many others have improved upon the basic formula, like Draignean.

Also, you asked the same question not a page ago.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 12:00:30 pm by Iris »
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Quote from: AseaHeru (on Discord), Monday, June 20, 2022 10:41 PM
I still want the D. The D is love, the D is life. The D is bully.
Rewind, can't keep going
My mind keeps replaying
That night when we dove in
But now I'm sinking

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1159 on: April 01, 2022, 12:05:20 pm »

Thank you.

...at risk of pestering, I'll dare to ask,

Did Design Bureau.. start.. here? On Bay12forums?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 12:07:41 pm by roseheart »
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He who knows he has enough is rich. -Lao Tzu
Whenever you've got to make a hard decision, don't become somebody that you don't respect. -Dr. John
Power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. -Robert Caro

Iris

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1160 on: April 01, 2022, 12:08:47 pm »

If you're looking for a "canonical" arms race, then there is no such animal; the genre as it exists is mostly just a series of conventions. If you plan on running your own, might I suggest looking at examples of arms races with similar mechanics? I would suggest shying away from Draignean's races, as they are very mechanically complex and not ideal for a beginner, but there are plenty of examples of what works and what doesn't.
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Quote from: AseaHeru (on Discord), Monday, June 20, 2022 10:41 PM
I still want the D. The D is love, the D is life. The D is bully.
Rewind, can't keep going
My mind keeps replaying
That night when we dove in
But now I'm sinking

Iris

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1161 on: April 01, 2022, 12:10:18 pm »

Thank you.

...at risk of pestering, I'll dare to ask,

Did Design Bureau.. start.. here? On Bay12forums?

I am not entirely sure, but I remember that Kingfisher's game - the one that Sensei cited as his inspiration - was a game on these forums.

Whoops, I clicked "quote" instead of edit, sorry for double post.
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Quote from: AseaHeru (on Discord), Monday, June 20, 2022 10:41 PM
I still want the D. The D is love, the D is life. The D is bully.
Rewind, can't keep going
My mind keeps replaying
That night when we dove in
But now I'm sinking

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1162 on: April 01, 2022, 12:21:48 pm »

If you're looking for a "canonical" arms race, then there is no such animal; the genre as it exists is mostly just a series of conventions. If you plan on running your own, might I suggest looking at examples of arms races with similar mechanics? I would suggest shying away from Draignean's races, as they are very mechanically complex and not ideal for a beginner, but there are plenty of examples of what works and what doesn't.

I was wondering for different reasons, initially for an art project. But now out of curiosity. The hub mural I used a Fire Emblem king since Haspen made both Fire Emblem on Forums and SPAMKINDOM, so it seemed fitting. Then I started wondering about the creator of Arms Race if it might inform the art, sounds like not...so I also just was curious to know.

Although, if there is an art style or artist that makes a lot of AR maps or flags I might want to get in touch with them.
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He who knows he has enough is rich. -Lao Tzu
Whenever you've got to make a hard decision, don't become somebody that you don't respect. -Dr. John
Power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. -Robert Caro

Iris

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1163 on: April 01, 2022, 12:25:53 pm »

That really depends on the race - usually, the players or the GM themselves will create that sort of thing. I'm not exactly sure where to point you.
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Quote from: AseaHeru (on Discord), Monday, June 20, 2022 10:41 PM
I still want the D. The D is love, the D is life. The D is bully.
Rewind, can't keep going
My mind keeps replaying
That night when we dove in
But now I'm sinking

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1164 on: April 01, 2022, 12:27:50 pm »

Thank you.

...at risk of pestering, I'll dare to ask,

Did Design Bureau.. start.. here? On Bay12forums?

I am not entirely sure, but I remember that Kingfisher's game - the one that Sensei cited as his inspiration - was a game on these forums.

Whoops, I clicked "quote" instead of edit, sorry for double post.
Thanks for the lead!
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He who knows he has enough is rich. -Lao Tzu
Whenever you've got to make a hard decision, don't become somebody that you don't respect. -Dr. John
Power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. -Robert Caro

Iris

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1165 on: April 01, 2022, 12:30:58 pm »

I would... not recommend bothering someone who is very likely gone from the forums altogether.
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Quote from: AseaHeru (on Discord), Monday, June 20, 2022 10:41 PM
I still want the D. The D is love, the D is life. The D is bully.
Rewind, can't keep going
My mind keeps replaying
That night when we dove in
But now I'm sinking

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1166 on: April 01, 2022, 12:43:32 pm »

I would... not recommend bothering someone who is very likely gone from the forums altogether.
Why?

How is a PM asking someone if they created a genre or where hey got it from, any real inconvenience? It has been my experience people are usually flattered or happy.
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He who knows he has enough is rich. -Lao Tzu
Whenever you've got to make a hard decision, don't become somebody that you don't respect. -Dr. John
Power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. -Robert Caro

RoseHeart

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Re: Arms Race/Design Bureau Hub/General OOC (Got a Discord Channel now)
« Reply #1167 on: April 01, 2022, 02:23:19 pm »

Also, you asked the same question not a page ago.
It was a good response too. I don't mind seeing if I get different answers, but I forgot I already ask. I guess because the truth is murky, I was left feeling unresolved. I am very grateful for the answers from you both.

Kingfisher's use of Russian spoilers has me wondering if it has Russian origins tbh. Nvm, seems to just be flavor.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 02:37:00 pm by roseheart »
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He who knows he has enough is rich. -Lao Tzu
Whenever you've got to make a hard decision, don't become somebody that you don't respect. -Dr. John
Power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. -Robert Caro
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