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Author Topic: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas  (Read 100876 times)

Parsely

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1065 on: June 26, 2016, 11:25:44 am »

People would use the best alternative in the absence of iron. You would have to prove that crystals are the best possible alternative. Or they would just build things differently from us? Like, REALLY differently? Personally I don't think that crystals would be used when you can make structures out of mud bricks and wood.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 11:33:44 am by GUNINANRUNIN »
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1066 on: June 26, 2016, 11:28:40 am »

So everything would be made out of quartz? :P

How would they make and shape the crystalline structures?
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Tack

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1067 on: June 26, 2016, 01:05:35 pm »

Uh, I was making them vat-grown, of a sort. Giant matrices brewing in a pot.

What would be a better form for crystalline structures/weapons? Basalt Hexagonal?

The other interesting tidbits about the specific world is that it is utterly barren (so wood is out), and that every creature on it is self-aware to a degree, so their protozoans are smarter than ours (within reason, emotions, creativity and long-term memories are kinda space-intensive iirc).
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1068 on: June 26, 2016, 01:20:57 pm »

Survivability and lethality are always jockeying for preeminence. Armor has definitely been in the lead for more than one period of history.

Not what I meant... But even back in medieval times armor was mighty expensive and still didn't protect against some weapon types. Defensive weapons on the other hand have been leading many times, best example I believe are artillery and machine guns in World War I.
You can always eventually break through something. It's about the expense to do so. A knight could be killed by peasants with pitchforks, it would just get a lot of peasants killed in the process. Modern warfare is liable to change dramatically as anti-missile defenses continue to improve, with one example being of the currently proposed/in development system for the next generation of tanks, I believe the German Leopard, having an anti-missile countermeasure effective enough to defeat tandem-shot RPGs without even letting them hit the chassis.
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Erkki

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1069 on: June 26, 2016, 01:33:46 pm »

Of course it is always about the expensive, and Mouse-like concepts of trying to be invulnerable come at a very high price. High enough for them to be unfeasible. With this I meant purely resisting hits, not trying to defeat incoming projectiles or missiles by other means.

I'm not sure if there is any AT weapon in existence that can reliably penetrate a Leopard's(A6 and later) turret frontally. At least not at first shot. But only a small, strategic part of the vehicle is armored that well, and it remains relatively vulnerable elsewhere.
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iceball3

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1070 on: June 26, 2016, 04:50:56 pm »

Uh, I was making them vat-grown, of a sort. Giant matrices brewing in a pot.

What would be a better form for crystalline structures/weapons? Basalt Hexagonal?

The other interesting tidbits about the specific world is that it is utterly barren (so wood is out), and that every creature on it is self-aware to a degree, so their protozoans are smarter than ours (within reason, emotions, creativity and long-term memories are kinda space-intensive iirc).
I'll let the subject of 'smart' protozoa slide for the moment for the sake of:
Vat grown? Pot? I thought you said they had no metals. Unless it's a "vat" made of crystal.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1071 on: June 26, 2016, 04:59:51 pm »

Glass is involved in vats too. :P

And pots can be made of ceramic.
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Culise

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1072 on: June 26, 2016, 07:29:24 pm »

For that matter, many ceramics could be characterized as crystalline (not all, though; glass is an amorphous ceramic).  The catch, however, is that by this measure, most if not all metals could qualify as well.  I suspect, somehow, that polycrystalline structures were very much not what was intended when the premise was given.

The problem, thus, should be from whence they got their start.  A completely barren world, without wood or common metals, is the premise.  From here, we are asked the likelihood of a "crystalline age" civilization emerging (by analogy to a stone, iron, or bronze age civilization).  The absence of wood creates another interesting immediate premise.  First, I assume by analogy to this and logically following the statement of a "barren" world, we should disregard any plant that may be strong enough to serve by itself as a construction material, of which woody plants are but a subset (bamboo is an example that springs immediately to mind, but I believe others exist, or like banana trees, may be so utilized).  As such, we can expect very few shrubs or trees akin to those on Earth; even large herbaceous plants such as banana trees could be used for construction if they existed.  However, the issue raised is very simple - how did these people ever harness fire?  Grasses don't burn very well, nor do ferns.  Ceramics and glass both require fire, or more precisely, the ability to harness and control significant amounts of thermal energy, of which fire is one of the easiest methods. 

That's not to say it's impossible.  Perhaps this world has some alternate source of fuel (maybe it was once highly-seeded in plant life, and is thus very rich in fossil fuels; the use of lignite as fuel is separated from the birth of Christ by almost a thousand years more than separates Christ from us).  Perhaps the problem can be bypassed: again ignoring the idea of intelligent protozoa, the growth of these crystals may be a consequence of some biological process, either on the part of the sapient species itself or on the part of some animal they have domesticated.  For instance, humans make milk, but the vast majority of our milk production comes from domesticated animals.  Bone was and is a material used today for crafts, art, and small goods.  If, for instance, you had some massive animal that grew an equally-massive crystalline, semi-ceramic shell (perhaps the barren world is your archetypal "desert world," more to the point with a large amounts of free silicates that an animal can easily absorb/consume from its surroundings and utilize in its growth), this shell could be used as a building material.  If it also regularly moults as it grows, you wouldn't even need to kill the animal to obtain the shell; you just take care of it and keep feeding it until it sheds its shell, then use the detritus to build your own house.

But, I suspect what we're talking about is not the early days of this species' paleolithic-equivalent.  From the talk and statements on what has been ruled out, I have this vague feeling we're talking Crystal Spires-inspired architecture, something like the Emerald City of Oz fame.  That is to say, it's not that the materials used are necessarily actually crystalline in terms of molecular structure (as iron, for instance, would be), but rather that it rather has to look crystalline.  Is this an accurate feeling?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 07:32:58 pm by Culise »
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Tack

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1073 on: June 27, 2016, 12:40:21 am »

That's an amazingly large amount of depth.
I would like to say ceramics are in (although through space magic I'd want it all to look glassy, black and red), which opens up the plate a lot.
The planet in question is also a volcanic powerhouse, which means lots of basalt and obsidian, and also possibly access to fire, because why not let's pretend lava furnaces are actually feasible.

The "smart" Protozoa could use some better explaining- every animal on the planet is the one species, however because they are interesting and special and defy standard biology, they have the ability to evolve quickly into larger or smaller life forms based on how good their food intake is. Everything is carnivorous, cannibalistic, and generally speaking pretty ambitious.

To lay the "not really that special" cards on the table, the inhabitants of the world are analogous to demons. Hot planet, the small ones are cunning and bloodthirsty imps, the larger ones are intelligent and civil.

However that opens up a new avenue of "was the planet always barren".
If the species arrived sometime, gained dominance and stripped the planet bare, there could potentially be lignite around and accessible.

Similar could be said if any megafauna of that species starved and died long ago, if the prevalence of food took a sudden drop because of the rapid deforestation (and then weren't eaten by scavengers somehow).
Not sure whether fauna can become fossil fuel though.


However, on the point of the suddenly no-longer intelligent Protozoa, is it possible for a microscopic life form to create crystalline structures through the waste products of feeding?
Like a thing which eats oil and craps polymers.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1074 on: June 27, 2016, 01:21:08 am »

However, on the point of the suddenly no-longer intelligent Protozoa, is it possible for a microscopic life form to create crystalline structures through the waste products of feeding?

Coral. Also, stromatolites if you want "real" rocks.

Edit: I'm not sure how much either one counts. Corals are accumulated shells of organisms and stromatolites can be formed in a number of ways, of the which the main way is fossilization of bacterial mats.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 01:26:38 am by TheDarkStar »
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Sheb

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1075 on: June 27, 2016, 01:43:58 am »

If everything is carnivorous, where does the energy come from?
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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1076 on: June 27, 2016, 04:00:39 am »

Was a mystery I was content to leave shrouded in mystery, but... Lava-swimmers maybe?
Photosynthesis isn't snowflake enough.
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Sheb

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1077 on: June 27, 2016, 05:55:44 am »

Wouldn't make sense. You could have some kind of bacterial mats growing on the local equivalent of submarine vents I guess.
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Culise

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1078 on: June 27, 2016, 09:51:08 am »

If everything is carnivorous, where does the energy come from?
Soul food. :P

...sorry, sorry, I truly couldn't resist.  Geothermal is a viable option, though the energy source is unlikely to actually be the lava or thermal energy directly without significant biological justification/handwaving; rather, it's more likely to be using chemicals given off from the area that are broken down into useful materials and energy (sulfur and sulfur compounds for that brimstone odor, carbon dioxide, ammonia, methane).  You could make photosynthesis a bit more "special snowflake" by using a different photosynthesizing agent.  I recommend phycoerythrin or carotenes for that lovely red hue, though it would be more viable on a world that receives large amounts of blue-yellow light (a hot, young sun; this could also help justify the lack of heavier metals).  The reason you want at least some non-carnivorous life, however, is because carnivores are actually quite inefficient; they eat other motile, animal life, but that other life has already expended significant amounts of energy in surviving as well.  If I recall properly, the rule of thumb was a 10:1 ratio of prey population to carnivore population, though obviously, that is only a rule of thumb.  Autotrophic life is much more efficient, and thus serves as an energy source rather than energy sink inside of a food web. 

Narratively, you don't actually need to bring it up, I think; a Horatio Hornblower tale doesn't need a digression into the life and times of seaweed.  You could just mention that the dominant species on the planet is actually this composite lifeform you mention, but that it feeds opportunistically off other members of its own species (cannibalistic), any lesser prey species it can catch (carnivore), and maybe even whatever else it can find (if you don't mind making it an omnivore/detrivore).  It being the only species on the entire planet, consuming itself like an ouroboros trapped in an entropic, biological cycle of decay and energy loss, is...a notion that raises significant questions.  Some of those questions themselves have the potential to evoke narrative interest, on the other hand.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:01:54 am by Culise »
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Strife26

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #1079 on: June 27, 2016, 11:06:50 am »

No, but the sci-fi version of Horatio, Lt. Leary certainly loves its biological digressions.
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