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Author Topic: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas  (Read 102601 times)

Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #930 on: April 23, 2016, 11:11:27 pm »

So.

Venusian Airship weapons. What would there be? Primarily pirates, merchant vessels, maybe a few specially made guard ships for convoys, but mostly there to facilitate trade.

Additionally, do you think that Organic space ships could ever be a thing?
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chaotic skies

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #931 on: April 23, 2016, 11:13:21 pm »

I think organic computers would be cool enough on their own; an organic space- or star-ship would be amazing.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #932 on: April 23, 2016, 11:14:24 pm »

What advantage would an organic spaceship offer? How do you define 'organic'?
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #933 on: April 23, 2016, 11:23:18 pm »

Grown. Self-maintaining. Possibly photosynthesizing. It would probably be heavily integrated with non-organic parts, but still. Biggest advantage I can really envision is energy efficiency and ease of construction. Might be more relevant for ground-borne structures, though.
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Amperzand

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #934 on: April 23, 2016, 11:43:02 pm »

Photosynthesis-capable/solar powered spacecraft are great, so long as you remain close to stars. Not very helpful out past Jupiter, AFAIK.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #935 on: April 23, 2016, 11:56:34 pm »

So.

Venusian Airship weapons. What would there be? Primarily pirates, merchant vessels, maybe a few specially made guard ships for convoys, but mostly there to facilitate trade.

Additionally, do you think that Organic space ships could ever be a thing?
Main question is why you would want to fly an airship on Venus. Before you can have merchant ships, you need places for them to trade with that aren't melting, leaving aside the issue of them melting themselves.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #936 on: April 24, 2016, 12:00:45 am »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Venus

Long story short, you make floating colonies about 50km up since it's neither as hot, as high-pressure, or as slow to have a day-night cycle that way. Also because nitrogen-oxygen gas mix is a lifting force on Venus. Carbon dioxide atmosphere, relative proximity to Earth, and decent or improved ability as launch point for elsewhere in solar system give a reason to colonize it, beyond the typical 'for redundancy' reasons.
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Culise

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #937 on: April 24, 2016, 12:54:24 am »

The cheapest colonization plan thus far for Venus is basically floating aerostats: islands in the sky at around 1 atm of pressure or 50-80 km of altitude, carried by an interior oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere that would literally float in the Venerian CO2-rich atmosphere (60% as efficient as helium at terrestrial sea level, for comparison).  By floating them at around 1 atm external pressure, you eliminate the pressure differential that would make a rip a major deal, as well as easing the engineering issues of handling said pressure differential and giving you an, if not pleasant, than at least relatively Earthlike temperature outside (around 27-75° C).  Airships would then become the preferred means of transit between these...well, technically, mega-airships.  Basically, what Rolepgeek's scenario presupposes is that Venus has already been colonized, in which case the places for them to trade between are these aerostat colonies. 

Any rate, because of the lack of pressure differential, loss of lifting force due to popping balloons would be a gradual phenomenon, and your lifting balloons are likely to be the primary living and cargo spaces for your airships as well.  To some degree, it depends on the tech level.  Chemical bombs could be a stylish sci-fi weapon, though I'm not sure about the practicality; the sulfuric acid present at these habitable altitudes has a strongly exothermic dehydrating reaction, which means that firing something like potassium chlorate (which would likely have been brought to Venus to be used to create oxygen, such as in oxygen candles) into the atmosphere will create a highly reactive combination of chloric acid and potassium sulfate, which will react strongly if in the presence of, say, common table sugar.  Strong atmospheric winds will guarantee good mixing, but there may not actually be enough at these levels to ensure the weapons are actually effective, though.  For comparison, consider firing potassium bombs to intent of causing it to react with rain on Earth to take down a helium airship - stylish, but probably not all that practical.  It might be a useful trick for some McGuyver-type hero to play in saving the day in particular circumstances, though (imagine: attacked by pirates using a Venusian thunderstorm as cover, the crew of the valiant ship Whatever loads their emergency oxygen candles inside boxes of sugar into an air-tight iron container, then fire it at the enemy; the box shatters from a combination of acidic degradation and the force of impact with the enemy's lifting balloon, and the oxygen candles immediately react with the sulfuric acid, release chloric acid into the sugar, and with a fwoosh, a torrent of flame coats the front of the enemy ship, including viewports, with residual carbon and thermal damage). 

More practical weapons are likely to be explosive shells and missiles; as pressure alone will not suffice, you want to rip big holes by area to sink your target.  Ripping up the top of the balloon will also help that lifting force work to carry the atmosphere right out of the balloon.  Since I brought up the idea of chemical delivery platforms, a hydrogen payload could release flammable (and likely ignited by the delivery itself) lifting gas inside the rocket that would naturally rise to the top.  Disable and capture may be effected by the use of physical nets, of all things, as well as harpoon-mounted tethers that would fire into the envelope of the target and pin it in place, especially if the speeds of these ships are not all that large (which is a question, neglecting technology, of which wind conditions these things will be designed to fly through; I could see freighters and the settlements sticking to slower polar regions of 0-50 m/s winds or the hotter, thicker, and most importantly slower atmosphere below while flyboys and aces skim jet streams driven by Hadley circulation that can easily exceed average windspeeds of 140 m/s in very different, much more aggressively-designed airships; also flying down becomes a way to fly into the wind while flying up is a way to fly with it and pick up speed, while piracy creates the mental image of piranhas against whales, or perhaps if the importance of the wind gauge is taken into account, corvettes against galleons).  If the airships take advantage of the strong Venusian prevailing winds to use a rudder-like sail system as well as powered engines, these could also be targeted for damage with the same explosive shells; crippling the enemy's ability to maneuver helps win the battle.  Interestingly, floating aerial mines/barrage balloons may become a possibility to deter attacks on the colonies themselves, since said colonies will essentially themselves be very large airships as well; depending on the particulars, the difference between them and the largest freighters could easily be one of scale rather than of kind.  Such balloons could be shifted into preplanned positions and, especially if tethered against winds, may create "fixed" positions to shift defenses away from the colonies themselves and establish defensive depth.  Or, given how the mention of fireships, become defenses themselves; small balloons may act as mines. 

NOTANEDIT: Ah, Rolepgeek posted the answer to "why" while I was working on the original question.  I shall leave it, though, because I'm a bit tired to edit it out. 

YESANEDIT: Good heavens, I spent over an hour working on that when I should be sleeping.  Well, consider it a rather inspirational question. ^_^
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 01:00:22 am by Culise »
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chaotic skies

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #938 on: April 24, 2016, 01:00:07 am »

This sounds like a fantasy/sci-fi mix straight out of a book and I love it.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #939 on: April 24, 2016, 01:11:41 am »

Huh. About what I'd come up with. Question is also one of what the pirates are looking to use to capture the vessels.

But yes, the scenario I was envisioning, partly based on an idea for a specific sci fi game from the Gaming Block, was sailing airships, not just electrical engines(in fact I imagined them using their lifting balloons as sails and shifting the whole frame of the airship to catch the wind the way they want to, in some cases). Efficiency is a big deal on Venus. There's a windstream that goes around the planet once every four days, so I can also see power plant ships that use it for the night side, get out on the sun side, and just absorb energy for the next half a year to use for energy-intensive factories and the like.

Plus, the issues of helicopters and fighter jets ruin the delicious aesthetic of airships, unless the winds are too much of an issue to risk losing one in most conditions. I did envision power suits with jump and flight capability being a not-too uncommon thing; allows boarding of intact airships, as well as a relatively cheap flight platform to mount weapons on, and more importantly, a comparatively light way to do so. Lifting gas will be expensive.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #940 on: April 24, 2016, 11:30:39 am »

I'd think that the main issue with jets would be landing/takeoff. Take the F-16 as an example. Viper takeoff distances range from ~1000 - 5000ft., and by my recollection the block 50 typically requires ~3000 ft. So you've got to build stable runways more than half a mile long that won't be exposed to a meaningful degree of crosswind (wouldn't do to have your fighters tumble off the side), and then you've got to deal with landings, which would probably be something like carrier landings except if the pilot misses the catch lines they're tumbling down into the crushing depths of the atmosphere.

It's likewise pretty typical for helicopters to be grounded by winds and gusts lower than 30 mph.


If we're talking non-airship flight, I'd expect to see jet-powered VTOL if anything. Too risky to take off and land traditional fixed-wing jets (never mind prop jobs), wind conditions would probably be too severe for helicopters to be practical. From a combat utility perspective, a VTOL jet would combine the in-flight advantages of a fighter with the ability to hover and act more in a gunship role against larger airships/colonies; it's natural for the effective tech to expand to cover both holes, I think. Airships would still probably be used heavily, given that you don't really have VTOL jumbo jets (and planes aren't particularly efficient for bulk transport either)--you've got to have a way to move large cargoes and numbers of passengers, and there's no land to base SAM sites, artillery, &c. on.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #941 on: April 24, 2016, 11:44:22 am »

I'd think that the main issue with jets would be landing/takeoff. Take the F-16 as an example. Viper takeoff distances range from ~1000 - 5000ft., and by my recollection the block 50 typically requires ~3000 ft. So you've got to build stable runways more than half a mile long that won't be exposed to a meaningful degree of crosswind (wouldn't do to have your fighters tumble off the side), and then you've got to deal with landings, which would probably be something like carrier landings except if the pilot misses the catch lines they're tumbling down into the crushing depths of the atmosphere.

It's likewise pretty typical for helicopters to be grounded by winds and gusts lower than 30 mph.


If we're talking non-airship flight, I'd expect to see jet-powered VTOL if anything. Too risky to take off and land traditional fixed-wing jets (never mind prop jobs), wind conditions would probably be too severe for helicopters to be practical. From a combat utility perspective, a VTOL jet would combine the in-flight advantages of a fighter with the ability to hover and act more in a gunship role against larger airships/colonies; it's natural for the effective tech to expand to cover both holes, I think. Airships would still probably be used heavily, given that you don't really have VTOL jumbo jets (and planes aren't particularly efficient for bulk transport either)--you've got to have a way to move large cargoes and numbers of passengers, and there's no land to base SAM sites, artillery, &c. on.
Why would you need a runway? It'd make landing easier, but that's what the catches and such are for. You can just drop or launch them straight into the air. It's not like they're going to crash anytime soon. And yeah, if you miss the landing you've got to try again, but the same is true of carrier landings, save that with carrier landings the sea is much closer to hit.

I suspect emergency parachutes would be more like emergency balloons that keep you at a specific buoyancy and height or something.
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Helgoland

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #942 on: April 24, 2016, 11:48:21 am »

But starting from a platform high up in the air affords entirely new possibilities:

For takeoff you could just push the plane over the edge, and let it gain sufficient speed via nosedive. Then you just swoop up again, Stuka-style.

Landing is more difficult, but the inverse of the takeoff procedure could work: The pilot approaches the landing area from below, and shuts down his engines. After it has made the climb the plane is slow enough to 'catch' somehow, or if maneuverability is not too low, it might even just land the standard way.

Before you ask: Yes, I've just proposed using giant nets to get fighter jets out of the sky.

Damn ninjas.
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Arx

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #943 on: April 24, 2016, 12:22:41 pm »

But starting from a platform high up in the air affords entirely new possibilities:

For takeoff you could just push the plane over the edge, and let it gain sufficient speed via nosedive. Then you just swoop up again, Stuka-style.

Landing is more difficult, but the inverse of the takeoff procedure could work: The pilot approaches the landing area from below, and shuts down his engines. After it has made the climb the plane is slow enough to 'catch' somehow, or if maneuverability is not too low, it might even just land the standard way.

Before you ask: Yes, I've just proposed using giant nets to get fighter jets out of the sky.

Damn ninjas.

Heh, you just also proposed closely mimicking nature. That's roughly the takeoff and landing procedure for many kinds of bird.
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Helgoland

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Re: Theoretical weapons (Burn all the things!) and other ideas
« Reply #944 on: April 24, 2016, 12:35:26 pm »

Let's take that idea and run with it: Might bird-style aviation be practical in the Venerian atmosphere?
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