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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1101514 times)

da_nang

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10905 on: October 29, 2020, 09:22:55 am »

So... France. Shit's going down, terror attack after terror attack. All because of a cartoon.

Condolences aside, how the fuck do we deal with this? The islamists are here and some of them are probably citizens so we can't deport them. Europe is in need of some serious deradicalization.

Of course, none of that will work long-term if the pipe is still leaking. It's time to tighten the border. And perhaps it is also time to restrict naturalization so we aren't stopped as easily by citizenship. I suggest a flexible generational requirement to weed out any foreign influence, since we cannot read minds.

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hector13

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10906 on: October 29, 2020, 09:55:40 am »

It does nothing to stop radicalization, which seems to be what you wanted to get at.

People are easy to lead astray, whether they’re citizens or not, whether they follow a religion or not, whether they can trace back their lineage through generations of natives or not. Tougher immigration law won’t stop that.

France, specifically, also already has pretty tough naturalization laws. They need to be an adult, have had habitual resident in France for 5 years, primary income has to be from France, basically be integrated into French society including fluent french, no criminal convictions of more than 6 months, and of good character.

Children born in France to foreign parents don’t automatically get to be French either. They need to wait until they’re 18 (so long as they’ve lived in France for 5 years since they turned 11) wait until they’re 16 (so long as they’ve lived in France since they were 11) wait until they’re 13 and have their parents apply, in which case they need to have lived in France since they were 8. They also need to live in France when they apply for it.

If we follow the example of the UK government, you can strip someone of their citizenship even in cases in which they are merely eligible to apply for citizenship in another country, even if they have never lived, worked, or visited said country, as in the case of Shemima Begum. She is technically a Bangladeshi citizen, at least ‘til she turns 21, unless she tries to retain it.

Anyway, tl;dr it’s not an immigration problem, and being radicalized isn’t limited to foreigners.
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10907 on: October 29, 2020, 10:12:54 am »

It most certainly is a migration problem. Whether the consequences become evident one or two generations down the line they still stem from migration. Willingly refusing to see issues in a long-term perspective just make you, well, short sighted.
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da_nang

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10908 on: October 29, 2020, 10:17:45 am »

-snip-
The issue I see is a human rights issue: we can't make people stateless and we can't deport our own citizens. Thus radicalized citizens in general need to be dealt with in another way. We can, however, limit the number of radicalized citizens by controlling the acquisition of citizenship.

Radicalized non-citizens are much easier to deal with: deportation.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10909 on: October 29, 2020, 10:31:17 am »

It most certainly is a migration problem. Whether the consequences become evident one or two generations down the line they still stem from migration. Willingly refusing to see issues in a long-term perspective just make you, well, short sighted.
That and the former ISIS bandits coming home to roost and stoke up tensions. Imo nothing's going to be done and we're just going to keep having market attacks, stabbings and bombings until our current childless politicians pass away in old age and islamist politicians start gaining power throughout Europe in the next 40 years

*EDIT
Former PM of Malaysia Mahathir Mohamad is rustling jimmies by saying Muslims have a right to punish the French and kill millions of French in response to colonialism, calling most of the West Christians in name only who are pushing their morals on the world
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 10:34:52 am by Loud Whispers »
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TD1

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10910 on: October 29, 2020, 10:41:35 am »

Quote
Anyway, tl;dr it’s not an immigration problem
Let's look at terrorist attacks in France from 2015, which I thought would limit the number of cases I'd need to look at but apparently not so much.

7th January 2015. Al-Qaeda in Paris.
9th January 2015. Amedy Coulibaly, a 'Malian-French' man, in Paris.
26th June 2015. Yassine Salhiin, son of a Moroccan and Algerian, in Saint-Quentin-Fallavier.
21st August 2015. Ayoub El Kahzani, Moroccan, in Oignies.
13th November 2015. Islamic State in Paris.

And then a whole raft of IS attacks perpetrated by Algerians, Chechnyans, Moroccans and one fellow whose background I can't find, but who was born in Paris to immigrant parents.

24th May 2019. Chérif Chekatt, an Algerian student, in Lyons.
3rd October 2019. Mickaël Harpon, a Martinique police-worker, in Paris.
3rd January 2020. Nathan Chiasson, an Islamist (presumably French?) with psychiatric issues, in Paris.
4th April 2020. Abdallah Ahmed-Osman, a Sudanese asylum-seeker in Romans-sur-Isère.
27th April 2020. Couldn't find name (?) but in support of Palestine and IS, in Paris.
25th September 2020. No name, but from Pakistan, in Paris.
16th October 2020. Abdoullakh Abouyedovich Anzorov, Russian Islamist, in Paris.
Today. No names yet. Islamist.

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it’s not an immigration problem
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10911 on: October 29, 2020, 10:44:56 am »

Today. No names yet. Islamist.
Just you watch, it's gonna be a Jacques Moreau this time

Btw some news you might've already seen, Corbyn's been kicked outta labour for responding critically to the labour internal antisemitism inquiry

TD1

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10912 on: October 29, 2020, 10:53:07 am »

Indeed.

I hope for a Corbyn-ution, but alas I fear it's unlikely. For any such uprising will be smote down with the battle clarion 'ur an anti-semite'
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10913 on: October 29, 2020, 10:58:02 am »

Since "sealing borders" remains, as ever, a right-wing fantasy rather than a real policy, it is not worth considering. It is laughable to believe that any country on the Mediterranean could prevent people from entering it. Lest you forget that one time a dead toddler face-down on a beach was on the front page of every news website...

And regardless, as said already, the reality of geopolitics makes neat little ideas like that impossible. The US could never have avoided giving visas to the 9/11 perpetrators so long as it insisted upon a relationship with our good friends in Saudi Arabia. Regulation and public opinion would just erode when not being looked at, well-paid in petrodollars. The same principle is true here - how many nations could France cut off? All of Francophone Africa? Russia too? The EU nations? You might as well Frexit at that point, and we see how well that would go.

France being France, I might recommend they follow their own history and declare state ownership of all religious buildings and ban all forms of religious schooling. Now there's a spicy meatball.

Btw some news you might've already seen, Corbyn's been kicked outta labour for responding critically to the labour internal antisemitism inquiry
And so the words of prophecy come true at last, in all their horror.

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voliol

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10914 on: October 29, 2020, 11:59:02 am »

Maybe putting immigrants in a precarious situation is not the best solution; stress is a great contributor to most crimes, including of course terror crimes. I don't keep perfect track of what's happening in France (which is a shame, as I have French relatives), but since the refugee wave of 2015 Sweden has had a dozen or so arsons of temporary homes for immigrants, and I have a hard time thinking the state in which Le Pen garnered 34% the last presidential election has a general population much kinder to immigrants. I'd also like to remind that (and MSH did this already, kind of) immigrants are people, with human rights and needs. Making life harder for many for the crimes of a few borders on wanton cruelty, collective punishment if you will.

It most certainly is a migration problem. Whether the consequences become evident one or two generations down the line they still stem from migration. Willingly refusing to see issues in a long-term perspective just make you, well, short sighted.
That and the former ISIS bandits coming home to roost and stoke up tensions. Imo nothing's going to be done and we're just going to keep having market attacks, stabbings and bombings until our current childless politicians pass away in old age and islamist politicians start gaining power throughout Europe in the next 40 years.
I do believe democracies do not work by relying on past politicians having had children, or that they hold their offices for life. Are you okay, LW?

scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10915 on: October 29, 2020, 12:15:52 pm »

Since "sealing borders" remains, as ever, a right-wing fantasy rather than a real policy, it is not worth considering.

As is "open borders" and "no borders" stances.
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TD1

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10916 on: October 29, 2020, 12:20:05 pm »

The important thing to realise is that immigration is a huge factor in these attacks.

The key issue having been determined, policies managing immigration can be considered. Appropriate policies.

None of this happens if people are scared saying "yea, immigration is an issue" will result in their summary exile from progressive society.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 12:21:55 pm by Th4DwArfY1 »
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feelotraveller

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10917 on: October 29, 2020, 12:52:16 pm »

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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10918 on: October 29, 2020, 01:48:12 pm »

Since "sealing borders" remains, as ever, a right-wing fantasy rather than a real policy, it is not worth considering. It is laughable to believe that any country on the Mediterranean could prevent people from entering it. Lest you forget that one time a dead toddler face-down on a beach was on the front page of every news website...
I doubt it, reason being no one's trying it, whereas plenty of European countries support an open door policy or are like Greece, just an open door by default. The RN for example stopped patrolling because human traffickers kept contacting them directly over radio, which meant that some European politicians were giving emergency contacts out in a place where traffickers could find em. Couple that with NGOs assisting in the transport of migrants & the deletion of countries like Libya, the deletion of borders within the Schengen area and the general refusal of most Western European politicians to even consider the concept of a border - it seems rather curious to point to the policy as proof that the policy is the only way. It is also a bit too hyperbolic to suggest anyone is proposing a hermetic seal of borders; even countries like Hungary or even the UK still have people coming in by boat, plane, car or truck, but the point is people come in through channels where security can vet them - as opposed to simply coming in without any concern for safety.

And regardless, as said already, the reality of geopolitics makes neat little ideas like that impossible. The US could never have avoided giving visas to the 9/11 perpetrators so long as it insisted upon a relationship with our good friends in Saudi Arabia.
Change your politics then; Kissinger was wrong, you can't bomb people into agreement

Regulation and public opinion would just erode when not being looked at, well-paid in petrodollars. The same principle is true here - how many nations could France cut off? All of Francophone Africa? Russia too? The EU nations? You might as well Frexit at that point, and we see how well that would go.
A border =/= A blockade

France being France, I might recommend they follow their own history and declare state ownership of all religious buildings and ban all forms of religious schooling. Now there's a spicy meatball.
Considering how cartoons are enough to warrant political assassination I do wonder what the result of this would be. I suppose the terrible thing about these attacks is that a teacher was singled out for murder over a lesson in secular values, then more people were murdered when the President condemned the murderer's motive. Rather depressing innit

And so the words of prophecy come true at last, in all their horror.

Uckland did not deserve a leader such as Jezza, glorious in his path, beautiful and terrible as the dawn. No, for you it is the brand of the Torygods that shall mark your fate, eternally in austerity, ever-old but never dead. Gammonworld Now.
Corbyn's not necessarily dead in the water, as he's still fighting the decision to suspend him. Not saying a sequel's likely but he may survive the ides of covid

Maybe putting immigrants in a precarious situation is not the best solution; stress is a great contributor to most crimes, including of course terror crimes. I don't keep perfect track of what's happening in France (which is a shame, as I have French relatives), but since the refugee wave of 2015 Sweden has had a dozen or so arsons of temporary homes for immigrants, and I have a hard time thinking the state in which Le Pen garnered 34% the last presidential election has a general population much kinder to immigrants. I'd also like to remind that (and MSH did this already, kind of) immigrants are people, with human rights and needs. Making life harder for many for the crimes of a few borders on wanton cruelty, collective punishment if you will.
I don't know about France, but in the UK recent immigrants tend to be highly averse to radicalisation, especially if they live in a poor and violent neighbourhood, and were disatisfied with their living conditions. Whereas our most violent and radicalised young'uns, tend to be from families that are well-educated, wealthier than most of the country, born in the country and well-integrated with good jobs and social networks - but prone to depression and viewed society very critically. Presumably you only get to engage in political violence once all of your needs are met and you can begin pondering what is really important in life. I'm reminded of one of our students who recruited people with the message that:

"What prevents you from obtaining martyrdom and the pleasure of your Lord? Look around you while you sit in comfort and ask yourself, is this how you want to die?"
Literally calling on people to abandon material comfort in exchange for a higher purpose. You can find out more interesting stuff from this profiles page which even provides breakdowns on roles & origins, including who was born into Islam or who converted.

Restricting the flow of people who wish to adjust the attitudes of your country with rather enthusiastic methods, may not do much to address why a significant proportion of your country wishes to already engage in enthusiastic attitude adjustment. Yet doing nothing and allowing more hostile persons in seems like a silly idea in the face of continued terror attacks. Regarding existing migrant communities and how continued terror attacks are just a result of Europeans not being friendly enough like Sweden, IDK Sweden didn't have to record bombings before they encouraged migration to their nation. Social security and a good neighbourhood only goes so far to convincing someone they really ought not to kill you

I do believe democracies do not work by relying on past politicians having had children, or that they hold their offices for life. Are you okay, LW?
European political candidates, like their American counterparts, are old and childless, not representative of the demographics of their constituencies or the demographic trends of the future. Whether they remain in office for aeons or swap for another elder makes no difference. The childless adj. is just to sarcastically remark on the phenomenon of most European national leaders being childless, a succint symbol of how most European policy lives in the now and expects the future to be someone else's problem.

The important thing to realise is that immigration is a huge factor in these attacks.
The key issue having been determined, policies managing immigration can be considered. Appropriate policies.
None of this happens if people are scared saying "yea, immigration is an issue" will result in their summary exile from progressive society.
A huge factor, where returning foreign fighters or newly arrived fighters are concerned. Yet the far greater concern is how do you convince a young man or young woman, from a wealthy or poor family, from a born-Muslim or convert life, from educated or uneducated - to choose values which are at a minimum tolerant of other faiths and observant of civil law, instead of listening to the cleric who says everyone else is an enemy and death is no sin

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #10919 on: October 29, 2020, 02:28:14 pm »

The important thing to realise is that immigration is a huge factor in these attacks.

The key issue having been determined, policies managing immigration can be considered. Appropriate policies.

None of this happens if people are scared saying "yea, immigration is an issue" will result in their summary exile from progressive society.
Yes, yes, you're a very hard man making hard decisions about bombing refugees that the soft-bellied liberals don't understand. However, the problem is actually religion, so bombing refugees will not stop anything. This can be demonstrated by how many people have been bombed already, and yet attacks continue.
I doubt it, reason being no one's trying it, whereas plenty of European countries support an open door policy or are like Greece, just an open door by default. The RN for example stopped patrolling because human traffickers kept contacting them directly over radio, which meant that some European politicians were giving emergency contacts out in a place where traffickers could find em. Couple that with NGOs assisting in the transport of migrants & the deletion of countries like Libya, the deletion of borders within the Schengen area and the general refusal of most Western European politicians to even consider the concept of a border - it seems rather curious to point to the policy as proof that the policy is the only way. It is also a bit too hyperbolic to suggest anyone is proposing a hermetic seal of borders; even countries like Hungary or even the UK still have people coming in by boat, plane, car or truck, but the point is people come in through channels where security can vet them - as opposed to simply coming in without any concern for safety.
It's not so much the policy proving itself as reality proving policy. There are only two border policies: Records or No Records. There used to be a third policy called Being An Island but that's gone the way of the dodo in the modern world, unless you're literally in the abyss of the open Pacific. Countries that go in for all this emotive bullshit about Keeping Them Out or even Saving The Refugees are dancing around the reality that they don't actually have control over borders.

Most secure border in the world is the Korean DMZ. There's not even a procedure for passing it, only for diplomatic meetings in it. They shoot everyone who tries. It's full of mines, and not the nice mines that kill you but the atrocity mines that blow your heel off and leave you alive. And people jump that border all the time, as well as the northern border with China. It's not all North Koreans fleeing either, plenty of Chinese smugglers go in too.

Nobody in the "West" has the chutzpah to reach this level of violence on their domestic borders. So it's just not going to happen, simple as that. Any policy that would be accepted would be subverted in short order. Which means there's no point in even wasting words on it since it poisons politicians to admit they don't have this kind of control, and the discussion should be all about policies which incentivize compliance with record-keeping entry.

Least secure border in the world is US-Mexico. Maybe there's competition for least secure, but more people cross that one than the rest. It's a farce. You think you'll manage a border harsher than Trump in a democratic system? And while the right continues to push on trying to get people to acknowledge "the dirty fact" that they think they're correct on but doesn't even recognize the reality of border policies, the situation just continues as it has. It's not even about achieving an actual material goal, it's just about getting people to say immigrants are bad. Getting caught up in "immigrants good/immigrants bad" discussions paralyzed the US for around 50 years now, ultimately ending with deciding immigrants were good. Real immigration management is pretty much exactly where it started but we have computer databases and secret police now. I don't recommend going down that kind of path.

Quote
Change your politics then; Kissinger was wrong, you can't bomb people into agreement
Of course, one global ecosocialist revolution coming right up.

Quote
A border =/= A blockade
Might as well be for this purpose. One thing Kissinger was right about is that you can't get something for nothing in geopolitics. On top of humans flowing like intelligent water and thus subverting the barriers put in front of us, a nation is not going to accept otherwise normal relations with a "and your people aren't allowed to ever visit us, filth" tacked on the end. Those days are over. One of the two will give - you will lose your access to the precious resource deposit mined by orphans for pennies on the yuan or you'll change your visa policy. Then someone comes over on that visa and decides they're the sword of God, we have this argument about practical policymaking, and the cycle starts anew. Then the ecocide kills everyone.

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Considering how cartoons are enough to warrant political assassination I do wonder what the result of this would be. I suppose the terrible thing about these attacks is that a teacher was singled out for murder over a lesson in secular values, then more people were murdered when the President condemned the murderer's motive. Rather depressing innit
France doesn't fuck around when it comes to religion. Once you've gone and oppressed your own majority religion a couple times it's really burned into the collective unconsciousness. As long as Le Pen stays out I expect the whole thing to end in something like banning religious schools, that's been proposed before by some French politicians I think.

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Corbyn's not necessarily dead in the water, as he's still fighting the decision to suspend him. Not saying a sequel's likely but he may survive the ides of covid
Liberalism is, of course, inherently doomed to collapse. But I suspect that it shall only end with Corbyn alone amongst the ash of what once was Britain.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 02:32:47 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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