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[scriver]

left-leaning liberal

No such thing.

[scriver]

Americanistic make-believe

[scriver]

People should stop listening to Americans. Their culture is toxic.

[Kagus]

I have some seriously lacking impulse control at times... Ended up in a friendly and polite discussion on Facebook again.

"If wearing a bikini is illegal in Saudi Arabia, it should be illegal to wear a burqa in Europe! Share if you agree!", the image said. And then I said that's silly and counterproductive. But apparently Norway needs to ban burqas in order to maintain its freedom of expression.


Still waiting to hear how that works, exactly.

[scriver]

Although it does need decoupling from Islam

That's like saying Christmas need decoupling from Christianity. It doesn't matter if it came from some other religion or culture a thousand years ago, Islam is the main proponent of it today.

[Kagus]

But then it could be that a lot of women, though legally free to do so, can't go against wearing it because of social and cultural pressures (though you can argue this for a lot of things. Why aren't people allowed to go around in the nuddy, for example).

That's the thing though; an outright ban won't magically let these people get an excuse from overbearing family members/"cultural members" letting them walk around outside... They'll just stay inside, because that's the only option left. Gov't won't let them outside with a burqa, family won't let them out without one... So stay inside, and somehow end up with even fewer freedoms than the last place.

As a general rule, people don't really like being oppressed... And it's been my experience that a lot of them will happily shed the burqa (and a number of other hangups) on their own once they realize it's no longer necessary and they feel comfortable enough to be able to do it. Sure, it might take a generation or two, but people really like the freedoms and opportunities of modern society. I live in a neighborhood with a lot of immigrants, many of whom are muslim. I've seen the cultural shift in action, and it's a beautiful thing to see people of their own will and volition realize just how dumb and restrictive many of the things in their past were, and happily embrace a future without them.


Anyways, apparently the image isn't about stopping burqas, it's about sending a message. And I've been given what amounts to the "This is the way it is and I don't care what you say" line, so I think I might as well drop the discussion and drink some more beer instead.

[Rowanas]

I can't help but feel, myself, this is part of the backlash against experts...

You've reminded me of one of the things that made my blood boil the most in the Brexit referendum. Politicians saying "we're tired of listening to experts". THEY'RE FUCKING EXPERTS, YOU VEGETABLE.  EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD, THEIR FIELD SPECIFICALLY BEING ECONOMICS, POLITICS AND HOW RIDICULOUSLY FUCKED WE ARE POST-BREXIT.

I wanted to scream until my head exploded and I could be off this awful rock.

/rant

[Loud Whispers]

Asking here because I've a feeling this will turn political(and sticking it in a political thread seems the right idea given that), and I originally saw this on the UK politics subreddit. (I'm beginning to think we should have a sort of "Charged but not flamey" thread)

What is it with the increasing hostility towards university? I'm seeing it more and more, where people think that universities are where the uneducated go to, and (this is where it gets political) left-leaning liberal Scientology-esque headquarters of indoctrination?

One of them takes all of your money and promises to help you learn about yourself whilst being a front for ideological indoctrination, the other is Scientology :P
In all seriousness, Universities are where most uneducated go to... To receive education. Likewise you are incorrect that UK Universities are left-leaning, because they are not left-leaning, they are the nucleus of the entire British left-wing, with 8 out of ten lecturers being left-wing, and that proportion naturally being even higher in the humanities department. You'd have to be in the engineering department to not notice how the syllabuses are made or which way the wind blows.

I'm at university right now. The most left-leaning, liberal thing I've seen is a lone reference to Trump being the primordial ooze that life emerged from. Furthermore, dam near every politician, the world over, is university educated. INCLUDING the right-leaning, conservative/reactionary ones. And universities (excluding the diploma mill style ones) actually require an education.

My Uni was the centre of a Labour think-tank, once held the annual record for exporting British jihadists, was thronged with momentum activists running about attacking leftists for not being leftist enough e.t.c.
It's telling for example in my open days that of the politics societies the student union allowed the marxist soc, fem soc, green, libdem, labour, socialists e.t.c. all tables but not the conservatives, whose society was allowed no table. Most of all my seminars were dominated by 3 or 4 people while the rest sat in silence, too scared to say anything which wouldn't survive intersectionality without controversy. I thoroughly enjoyed this atmosphere, but by no objective measure could you observe this as impartial, anymore than a man whose stepped on a landmine with his left leg is a well-balanced and upright man. The conflict isn't even between right and left wing at University, because the right wing has been so thoroughly disarmed and thrashed in that regard that their presence is pitiful and pathetic. You will find Marxism on the marking syllabuses of GCSEs. It is a conflict between leftist liberals and younger leftists dissatisfied with the old guard's status quo, attacking pioneering progressives for being terfs, zionists, neoliberals, racist e.t.c.
Regarding politicians, there is a clear difference between which politicians went to University, what they studied and how involved they were with campus life. Whether they studied PPE and left more Thatcherite, or they studied Drama and left more Marxist, or they kept their distance from campus life altogether - one's environment in those years does shape things considerably for those in their younger formative years. By contrast mature students who are working a full time job whilst studying for their degree are considerably less affected and involved. And of those who are workmen, it is worth mentioning the likes of Nigel Farage for example, have never been to University. Whether that is because University drills these notions out of students or if University selects against people of those views is up to you to decide, I personally never wrote a right-wing essay in my life out of the certain knowledge it'd be received poorly.

I can't help but feel, myself, this is part of the backlash against experts that appears to be cropping up in the West. Some idea that they're all idiots that have no idea what they're doing, that they're virtue signallers, that they're working for their own benefit, and that all they do is play identity politics. And since universities churn out experts...

Universities churn out graduates, not experts. A tremendous deal of issue with "experts" is that they are not experts, they are people who are entirely inundated with critical theory yet have never learned by experience or tested the validity of anything they believe in through actual work. Rather like someone with a strategic business management degree who comes up with a 120 point plan for an issue which could be resolved with 1. Otherwise yes, the above points you and I have mentioned are precisely the criticism.

Although it does need decoupling from Islam

That's like saying Christmas need decoupling from Christianity. It doesn't matter if it came from some other religion or culture a thousand years ago, Islam is the main proponent of it today.

It isn't like that at all, Christmas is a holiday spread across all Christian branches and sects. The burqa is an Arab tradition, its enforcement a wahhabi doctrine, and this has caused much consternation to Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia & Malaysia for example who have faced discrimination for being Ajams. Trying to pretend that Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia represent billions of people is not helpful.

*EDIT

You've reminded me of one of the things that made my blood boil the most in the Brexit referendum. Politicians saying "we're tired of listening to experts". THEY'RE FUCKING EXPERTS, YOU VEGETABLE.  EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD, THEIR FIELD SPECIFICALLY BEING ECONOMICS, POLITICS AND HOW RIDICULOUSLY FUCKED WE ARE POST-BREXIT.

I wanted to scream until my head exploded and I could be off this awful rock.

/rant

The bar for an academic expert is terribly low, for you see it's been stocked full of the scions of affluent families who send their kids off to do Politics, Philosophy & Economics to set them up for careers in fields they join at such a young age having never gained any practical or technical knowledge of anything they've done or studied. Plenty of study, research & writing, (if they hadn't been an eternal first year or spent most of their time drinking or hadn't outsourced their work to a 3rd party writer like some sneaky breeki folk do), or if they hadn't graduated after their parents donated generously to the University, and what subsequently do you have? A man in a suit who has plenty of knowledge of untested theories. You wouldn't trust them with your cash and nor I with our country, and it seems altogether idiotic to surrender your own ability to think for yourself in favour of someone who just a few years prior was downing tequila shots off of their roommates arse cheeks.
And let's be frank regarding predictions; at best, you can say they are making stochastic predictions. Which is to say, they are making assessments over possible outcomes and concluding which is the most probable one, but they cannot determine which of these predictions (if any) will be the outcome. Subsequently when experts said not joining the euro would result in the death of the UK economy for example, or when Theresa May determined she would have a landslide victory, or when experts said the Leave vote itself would be the death of the UK economy, that tomorrow will be the beginning of the end for reals this time - it doesn't turn out so. At worse, they're concluding whatever answer their patrons are searching for. Is it wise to be critical of politicians whilst obedient to experts when both are cut from the same cloth?

[hector13]

So what do we do when they both say the other is stupid?

[redwallzyl]

Although it does need decoupling from Islam

That's like saying Christmas need decoupling from Christianity. It doesn't matter if it came from some other religion or culture a thousand years ago, Islam is the main proponent of it today.

I'm with LW on this. You are universalizing and assuming something that is not actually true.

Also personal opinion, for religiously associated garments in general. I think that if wearing them represents piety then enforcing their wearing kind of undermines the point. It's not a statement of faith or beliefs at that point it's just oppression. It takes away all the meaning. It's life if every American was forced to fly the American flag. It takes away the meaning and makes it a symbol of something bad.

[Reelya]

There are a lot of misinformed people out there. For example one Quora question was asking if foreigners in Turkey are required to wear a burqa. Burqas aren't even a part of Turkish history.

[scriver]

Although it does need decoupling from Islam

That's like saying Christmas need decoupling from Christianity. It doesn't matter if it came from some other religion or culture a thousand years ago, Islam is the main proponent of it today.

It isn't like that at all, Christmas is a holiday spread across all Christian branches and sects. The burqa is an Arab tradition, its enforcement a wahhabi doctrine, and this has caused much consternation to Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia & Malaysia for example who have faced discrimination for being Ajams. Trying to pretend that Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia represent billions of people is not helpful.

Even setting aside that Saudi Arabian Wahhabism is by far the most influential and dominance-seeking branch of Islam today; you can compartmentalise "Islam" down how much you want, but the fact remains that in the end, it's still a Muslim and more importantly religious source for the custom as it exists in the modern world. Decoupling the custom from the religion is choosing not to understand the how and why of the custom and why people continue to practice it. I chose "Christmas" to counterpart eitb not as a comparison in spread throughout the religion but because it is the go-to example of pagan/non-Abrahamaic stuff that got absorbed into the religion.

[TD1]

I'd simply say that it is a cultural dress which in a great many cases is used as part of religion.

It's not necessarily religious, but it often is.

[Dorsidwarf]

I’m really not sure what the point of your post is, LW. “Some people trained in political predictions remain inaccurate because people can be hard to predict so therefore all experts are lying elitist hacks and you should listen to your mate joe from the pub instead? That whole post seems to have no ideas behind it other than the bashing of people who know things.

Edit: setting aside the fact that an undergraduate course in something definitely doesn’t make you an ‘expert’ in it by any measure that I’ve heard. “Trained” perhaps

[Loud Whispers]

So what do we do when they both say the other is stupid?

Agree with both

Even setting aside that Saudi Arabian Wahhabism is by far the most influential and dominance-seeking branch of Islam today; you can compartmentalise "Islam" down how much you want, but the fact remains that in the end, it's still a Muslim and more importantly religious source for the custom as it exists in the modern world. Decoupling the custom from the religion is choosing not to understand the how and why of the custom and why people continue to practice it. I chose "Christmas" to counterpart eitb not as a comparison in spread throughout the religion but because it is the go-to example of pagan/non-Abrahamaic stuff that got absorbed into the religion.

For clarification, I do not agree with the notion of decoupling the enforcement of this custom from its religious doctrine, so in that disagreement we are in agreement. For further clarification, Wahhabists are maybe 0.5% of the global Muslim population and are neither the most influential nor the most "dominance-seeking" branch of Islam today, Wahhabism is itself not even a unified branch of Islam. That they are overrepresented in European countries speaks more of Europeans than it does of the global Muslim population. Just saying, we're led by politicians who let Wahhabists run our schools and our countries exported more fighters to Syria than actual Muslim countries. Really gets the noggin joggin

I also do not understand what you mean by "compartmentalise," when it is just a simple reality that you cannot treat such a vast group of people as a homogenous entity any more than you can treat Christians as a homogenous entity. The differences in those who base the beliefs and the doctrines of their faith off of tradition, sola scriptura, interpretations & teachings from clerics, the range in acceptable canon e.t.c. are all immensely varied. Treating it as a "Muslim" custom when it is not enforced as a religious custom to all Muslims not has basis in religious custom to all Muslims renders it grossly unhelpful; it isn't correct and it erases the voices of Muslims in favour of the loudest ones the West deems as Islam's singular representative.

I’m really not sure what the point of your post is, LW. “Some people trained in political predictions remain inaccurate because people can be hard to predict so therefore all experts are lying elitist hacks and you should listen to your mate joe from the pub instead? That whole post seems to have no ideas behind it other than the bashing of people who know things.
Edit: setting aside the fact that an undergraduate course in something definitely doesn’t make you an ‘expert’ in it by any measure that I’ve heard. “Trained” perhaps

Setting aside that we have a pretty straighforward pipeline of PPE and IR students into positions of expertdom; no, my point is simply to state that you should not be wholly obedient of advisors pretending to be executives. Expert advisors have no uniform standards for selection, can be conjured from whole cloth out of private think tanks, have their own agendas, ideological constraints, economic constraints, social constraints, conflicts of interest, human fallibility, sell unfounded analysis treated as Nostradamun prophecy - and to top it all off there's a tremendously dangerous conflation of going to University = knowing things, leading to such awkwardness as men who wrote essays about ethnographic studies believing they know more about such a topic than those who lived the subject themselves. The notion that experience begets no knowledge and that the University is the sole legitimate gatekeeper for intellectualism is a rather recent one. Go to a bricklayer for advice on building houses, go to a jeweler on advice on appraising jewels.