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[ChairmanPoo]

I meant both.

Btw if two weeks ago you'd told me I'd watch a 15 min speech in Catalonian, I'd not have believed you :p

[ChairmanPoo]

European press suggests EU mediation might be in the works (spanish) http://m.eldiario.es/zonacritica/europea-expresa-descarta-intervencion-UE_6_696140384.html

We'll see. The PP keeps trying to get support to pull out article 155 to abolish Catalonian autonomy. If that happens things will get ugly fast.

[scriver]

PP? Is that short for the party or like for the government-head like "Washington"/"White House"/"Kremlin"/"Brussels"?

[smjjames]

President of Parliament maybe? By which he means PM Rajoy?

[Sheb]

No, PP (Popular Party) is the main right-wing party in Spain, and the one of the prime minister.

[scriver]

Yeah, I looked that up after I had posted. Apologies for not coming back and editing the answer, I was lazy

[ChairmanPoo]

Code: [Select]

Apparently the PSOE has pledged support to the PP in exchange for some future unspecified territorial reform.

It's going to happen    Clearly the only answer the central goverment and it's cronies  to the dialogue proposal of the Govern is repression and propaganda.

It's a very sad day, I'd say. Things are heading in a bad direction

Shameful for the EU too to ask for Puigdemont to hold the UDI to leave room for tallking and then not following it through    Even if they dont give any fucks for the Catalan people (they didn't and don't for the Greeks, so it's certainly in-character), surely they can see such a powder keg of a situation is not heading anywhere nice.

I kind of feel like I'm watching a railroad accident in slow motion.

[scriver]

Territorial reform means removal of any Catalan autonomy and /or the destruction of the legal entity of Catalonia, I assume?

Also, what is that code field up there?

Also, I noticed avatar change

[ChairmanPoo]

Territorial reform means removal of any Catalan autonomy and /or the destruction of the legal entity of Catalonia, I assume?

It's a weasel word of the Socialist Party. They love throwing it around. See, they say they're going to reform Spain into a federal state.

They've been promising that for the last 30 years. It's a promise they like to throw around to try to scrap a few votes on the left. I stopped thinking they might actually mean it around 2005. Of note: since the death of General Franco, the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Party) has held the goverment six times, and they haven't lifted a finger in that direction. They're not particularily socialistic, either, for that matter.

Now, the big question is what do they mean with "territorial reform" right now. Four weeks ago I'd have told you that it was more of the same. The current leader of the PSOE overthrew his rival, among other things, by promising to turn to more leftist policies, give more weight to the party base, and by promising (once again) federalism as one of the party's goals. To date he hadn't fulfilled any of his promises, something that was disappointing, but not surprising (I'm beyond caring about the PSOE, really, at this point). More of the same, really, I thought.

But... after failing to criticise the goverment's violent policial response in Catalonia (moreover, supporting it), after pledging their loyalty to the PP's goverment... it kind of makes you wonder what he actually meant. 
The simple fact is, the Socialist Party is clearly in bed with the PP and with Ciudadanos (which for all practical intents and purposes is a whitewashed Falange). I fear for Catalonian autonomy, I fear for the Basque and Navarrese Statutes, and I fear any constitutional reform that this triunvirate will propose, for I kind of suspect the kind of bullshit they will propose.

Also, what is that code field up there?

Typo. Was writing on my cellphone

Also, I noticed avatar change

Yeah. I feel very bitter about what the central goverment is doing to the Catalonian people (which is... the same they were doing to us 20-30 years ago, really). And about how people in the Inner Plateau have cheered the Guardia Civil when it was sent to violently repress the Catalonian people, and cheered again once they did. And the general willingness to abuse and humiliate the Catalonians. I've had experiences in that regard, too (I think many people in the Basque Country have. TBH this wasnt completely unexpected, as political repression is kind of the go-to tool for those people, though I hoped against hope that, since we are in the 21st century and all European and all that there would be a negotiation and a peaceful compromise). Overall I feel a lot of kinship with the Catalans nowadays, and, conversely very little kinship with people who cheer at the Civil Guard beating older women for daring to dissent.

I also have been moved by how the Govern is sticking to it's plan despite a massive  offensive on the economical, judicial, and media fronts, from the most rancid sectors of Madrid's goverment. I'd really like them to succeed and proclaim the Fifth Catalonian Republic. I'll toast to that, I think.

[Pwnzerfaust]

Eh, while I'm in favor of self-determination, independence would be terrible for Catalonia. Would severely damage their economy, since most major companies would leave the new country (even before independence!) to make sure they keep access to European market. EU wouldn't let them rejoin because Spain would veto it. With the loss of companies would bring a loss of jobs and a ballooning unemployment, and a brain drain from Catalonia into the EU.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Eh, while I'm in favor of self-determination, independence would be terrible for Catalonia. Would severely damage their economy, since most major companies would leave the new country (even before independence!) to make sure they keep access to European market. EU wouldn't let them rejoin because Spain would veto it. With the loss of companies would bring a loss of jobs and a ballooning unemployment, and a brain drain from Catalonia into the EU.

If only there was something one could do to prevent transnational corporate bodies from draining the wealth out of your county to protect their own greed.

[ChairmanPoo]

Would severely damage their economy, since most major companies would leave the new country (even before independence!)

LOL. You think this was a coincidence? This was orchestrated by the goverment. It's part of the fear campaign.

EU wouldn't let them rejoin because Spain would veto it.

That says more about the EU and about Spain than about Catalonian nationalism.

And quite possibly pragmatism would triumph in the end, as far as the EU is concerned.

With the loss of companies would bring a loss of jobs and a ballooning unemployment

Possibly, but TBH if you want independence you have to take risks. These things are seldom without a cost.

ballooning unemployment, and a brain drain from Catalonia into the EU.

Both are already happening in Spain as a whole. So pretty much business as usual, no?

Anyhow, it's worth noting that the Catalonians originally wanted to negotiate their own status within Spain, and are still open to negotiation even after all that has happened in the last 7 years, and particularily the last three weeks. But the  central goverment has not only refused to offer any negotiation, but has increased the pressure on the Catalonian people and institutions.

Eh, while I'm in favor of self-determination, independence would be terrible for Catalonia. Would severely damage their economy, since most major companies would leave the new country (even before independence!) to make sure they keep access to European market. EU wouldn't let them rejoin because Spain would veto it. With the loss of companies would bring a loss of jobs and a ballooning unemployment, and a brain drain from Catalonia into the EU.

If only there was something one could do to prevent transnational corporate bodies from draining the wealth out of your county to protect their own greed.

I used to be a trade union rep with these other guys. But I like the CNT. They have a lot of history, too

Plus, sometimes they do hilarious stunts. I recall once, I was walking through the street, and I saw them protest against the firing of a cashier in a shop. Basically  a guy with a megaphone was parading in front of the shop entrance with a huge drum (you know the type) and a megaphone, shouting that "SO AND SO HAS BEEN FIRED UNFAIRLY BY MANAGER SO AND SO! SHAME ON THIS SHOP! ORGANIZE AND PROTEST!"... and that sort of thing.  I suspect it was far more effective than one would think, if unconventional

[scriver]

I tried doing a flag thing but turns out I can't do anything in photoshop any more from disuse and now I'm sad.

[ChairmanPoo]

BTW: It's official. Goverment is triggering 155  . Now the Govern has 8 days to retract from it's current position. If they don't then the goverment can ask the parliament mandate for whatever measures they see fit. Which they will get through C's and PSOE's support  Edit: No. They have to ask the Senate. Which is theirs. They dont even need the PSOE. Not that the PSOE is refusing them.

Another PSOE leader (from the Catalonian branch, of all places) has come out supporting the party line and saying that this way they can get the PP to agree to do a new Constitution which will make everyone happy.

I wonder if he's really *that* stupid or, conversely, if he believes that everyone else is *that* stupid

[Loud Whispers]

Eh, while I'm in favor of self-determination, independence would be terrible for Catalonia. Would severely damage their economy, since most major companies would leave the new country (even before independence!) to make sure they keep access to European market. EU wouldn't let them rejoin because Spain would veto it. With the loss of companies would bring a loss of jobs and a ballooning unemployment, and a brain drain from Catalonia into the EU.

tbh this focus on doing whatever suits the economy without regard for what benefits your people is what got yurop into these messes in the first place. Ends with a country whose economy is doing great for a minority of corporate beings and gobshite for its people. That said, Catalonia does not need independence to do so, and the Catalonian gov also say their preferred policy is autonomy and not independence, but frankly if the Catalonians are worried that independence will spook any companies they shouldn't be, because they're moving regardless of Catalonia being a nation-state or a nation.
All in all as long as Catalonians are humble & patient I'm hopeful... I worry that brash moves will cause a federal bull to be quick on the charge.

BTW: It's official. Goverment is triggering 155  . Now the Govern has 8 days to retract from it's current position. If they don't then the goverment can ask the parliament mandate for whatever measures they see fit. Which they will get through C's and PSOE's support 
Another PSOE leader (from the Catalonian branch, of all places) has come out supporting the party line and saying that this way they can get the PP to agree to do a new Constitution which will make everyone happy.
I wonder if he's really *that* stupid or, conversely, if he believes that everyone else is *that* stupid

How many allies does Catalonia have