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[Erkki]

Is there any breakdown of crime by ethnicity? I remember when we had that discussion about Sweden some months (might have been a year) ago, and it turned out that new immigrants had lower than average sex crimes apart from stuff related to public bath (and lower average). I mean, we can cherry pick exemples all days (and they're cherry picked for us by FB's algorithm and our respectives bubbles), so overall stats are always interesting.

Not by ethnicity, but differentiates citizens of foreign nations

https://www.poliisi.fi/instancedata/prime_product_julkaisu/intermin/embeds/polisenaxwwwstructure/46729_HPL_Ulkomaan_kansalaisten_osuus_rikollisuudessa_tammi_maalisk.2016.pdf?5f5ffe50796ad388

Rapes alone up by 50 % compared to year backwards. Last 2 paragraphs are change in numbers and percentile.

edit: also not Sweden, but, the thing that happened within the timeframe was the arrival of 32,000 "refugees".

[Shub-Nullgurath]

Is there any breakdown of crime by ethnicity? I remember when we had that discussion about Sweden some months (might have been a year) ago, and it turned out that new immigrants had lower than average sex crimes apart from stuff related to public bath (and lower average). I mean, we can cherry pick exemples all days (and they're cherry picked for us by FB's algorithm and our respectives bubbles), so overall stats are always interesting.

I have the feeling that might be statistical manipulation and "refugees" aren't included in the "immigrants" category.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I don't recall that particular conversation, and though I don't have time to look in-depth right now, a very cursory glance doesn't seem to bear it out. All the 'Local Head of Cultural Integration Department at Stockholm University' hand-wrangling aside.

Those with immigrant background are overrepresented in Swedish crime statistics, but research shows that socioeconomic factors, such as unemployment, poverty, exclusion language, and other skills explain most of difference in crime rates between immigrants and natives.[12][92][93][94][95][96][97][98]

What the fuck does that mean?

"They can't speak the language so that justifies them raping people"?

[Jopax]

I like how you pull a justify out of a sentance containing only explain.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I like how you pull a justify out of a sentance containing only explain.

Giving someone a reason for doing something beyond "they chose to do it" is justifying it.

If I say, "Oh, your insomnia explains why you crashed your car" is a justification for it. I have justified your crashing the car by taking the blame away from you.

If you say, "Oh, their not knowing the language explains why they raped those women" is a justification for it. You have said the blame for their actions is in the fact they don't understand the language, not in themselves.

[Jopax]

While the two words can be synonimous I don't think you're using that quite right. Especially since the quoted part is about the crime rate in general (in which case not knowing the language perfectly logically leads to crime because your legal life sustaining prospects are either limited or non-existant), not rape in particular. Unless you're claiming that the entirety of immigrant crime is rape all day every day.

[Erkki]

"They can't speak the language so that justifies them raping people"?

Best excuse I've heard so far, was from an Iraqi man in 20s who raped a 13 or 14 year old (IIRC) in public baths. He claimed to have had a "sexual emergency" where he couldn't control himself.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

While the two words can be synonimous I don't think you're using that quite right. Especially since the quoted part is about the crime rate in general (in which case not knowing the language perfectly logically leads to crime because your legal life sustaining prospects are either limited or non-existant), not rape in particular. Unless you're claiming that the entirety of immigrant crime is rape all day every day.

Yes, because Sweden, one of the biggest welfare states in the world, doesn't provide enough to immigrants to stop them having to steal to feed themselves. This is clearly the case.

[Jopax]

You really like your hyperbolic statements as fact don't you?

Because every single immigrant gets what they consider livable or a bare minimum and because every single one of them is registered and in the system and recieving benefits.

So here's the deal, either you start backing up your hyperbolic bullshit with some factual bits or we stop having a discussion, because one of us here is being intelectually dishonest and throwing shit into the mix for whatever reason they might have.

[hector13]

While the two words can be synonimous I don't think you're using that quite right. Especially since the quoted part is about the crime rate in general (in which case not knowing the language perfectly logically leads to crime because your legal life sustaining prospects are either limited or non-existant), not rape in particular. Unless you're claiming that the entirety of immigrant crime is rape all day every day.

Yes, because Sweden, one of the biggest welfare states in the world, doesn't provide enough to immigrants to stop them having to steal to feed themselves. This is clearly the case.

It appears to be a poor transcription from this politifact article, and should read as such:

Generally, there’s a certain over-representation of people with immigrant background in crime statistics, but that tends to be closely related to high levels of unemployment, poverty, exclusion, low language and other skills, Selin said.

I would also like to point out that you're jumping to conclusions. Nowhere does it say that any of those things are justifications for crime, merely that they correlate.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

You really like your hyperbolic statements as fact don't you?

Because every single immigrant gets what they consider livable or a bare minimum and because every single one of them is registered and in the system and recieving benefits.

So here's the deal, either you start backing up your hyperbolic bullshit with some factual bits or we stop having a discussion, because one of us here is being intelectually dishonest and throwing shit into the mix for whatever reason they might have.

Ah, that £28 a day they receive on welfare in Sweden is too little, not including the rent and bills they get paid for by the state. I understand how it is.

If they're not registered in the system and receiving benefits then they're not legal immigrants, are they? Therefore they wouldn't be included in statistics since they're non-existent in the system.

(I have my doubts on numbers of immigrants in Sweden being unregistered, considering how hard it is to just wander up there.)

[Erkki]

"They can't speak the language so that justifies them raping people"?

Best excuse I've heard so far, was from an Iraqi man in 20s who raped a 13 or 14 year old (IIRC) in public baths. He claimed to have had a "sexual emergency" where he couldn't control himself.

The raped boy was 10, I believe.

And the 'sexual emergency' defence worked. His conviction was overturned.

You have to laugh, really. And then cry.

Good thing about is that he can be/could be deported.

[Silverthrone]

Well, that is unless he goes under-ground. Like every other bastard seems to be doing.

There is a horribly large amount of people who have simply disappeared once their residence permits have been denied. For no one puts them in custody, and the police do not have the time nor necessary mandates to detain them very efficiently.

Mr. Uzbeki Lorry-Driver from last friday was one of those people.

Now, for a story. Some five odd years ago, the Stockholm metropolitan police began to do occasional identification sweeps in some major thoroughfares, such as the metro. The main purpose was to find and identify non-EU citizens who were no longer permitted to remain in the country. The general climate was, of course, rather different, and the police were called all sorts of things for executing the law. 'Fascists' was a popular one, I seem to recall.
In that sort of environment, it is no wonder that identification and deportations have been rather lax in recent years...

[hector13]

The police shouldn't be the ones who are dealing with immigrants. Does Sweden not have an immigration service to keep track of immigrants?

In saying that, I once knew someone who overstayed a visa in the UK. The immigration service came to his door and asked where he was. Given he didn't particularly want to leave at that point, he told them "he doesn't live here anymore" and they left.

As for people not liking what the police were doing as per your story, I would imagine that people don't particularly like it when there is going to be some racial targeting element in the activities of the police, particularly when what they're looking for is someone whose only crime is not having the right pieces of paper.

[Silverthrone]

Yes, but the immigration service does not have the mandate to carry out the deportations. They do keep track of the immigrants which cases they are currently handling, but it is terribly easy to simply disappear and remain in the country if your application is denied, or if there are other reasons to stay out of touch with the authorities.

Now, I can understand why people might be upset by those identity controls. That is not particularly hard, for it sounds very mean and nasty on paper. It is understandable, but more to the point, it is terribly naïve. It is not terribly pleasant to see people being deported to worse places, or policemen in public hoping to apprehend them, but it is a necessity. Losing control of who is allowed to enter and reside in the country leads to disorder, and can have very severe consequences.