Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

No (flat 0.3E/T/u, break-even times 3T, 5T, 8T, 13T, 19T) (pro: Balances T4-based agents, contra: Takes forever to break even)

6 (33.3%)

Yes (1/3 creation cost/T, break-even times 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T) (pro: 3x break-even ratio preserved, contra: Low-tier races useless)

2 (11.1%)

Yes ((tier + 1)/3, break-even times 3T, 6T, 8T, 10T, 12T) (pro: Maximizes above two's strengths? contra: Maximizes above two's weaknesses?)

9 (50%)

Yes (other scale posted in thread)

1 (5.6%)

Yes (another scale posted in thread)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 18

[IcyTea31]

Why would any Shapeshifter turn into a bear in combat rather than a fire-breathing goliath?

Square/cube law? The goliath is just a big target, while the bear can actually fight.

[Andres]

Why would any Shapeshifter turn into a bear in combat rather than a fire-breathing goliath?

Square/cube law? The goliath is just a big target, while the bear can actually fight.

Yes but the goliath can just swing its rex-sized fist and pulp the bear's face (using cube law to its advantage). Or pick up a REALLY BIG STICK and whack the bear with it. Or it can light the bear's fur on fire. Or it can light the REALLY BIG STICK on fire then whack the bear with it. Or it can run up and kick it.

Honestly, the real question is how the bear could win in the fight.

[Happy Demon]

Why would any Shapeshifter turn into a bear in combat rather than a fire-breathing goliath?

Square/cube law? The goliath is just a big target, while the bear can actually fight.

Yes but the goliath can just swing its rex-sized fist and pulp the bear's face (using cube law to its advantage). Or pick up a REALLY BIG STICK and whack the bear with it. Or it can light the bear's fur on fire. Or it can light the REALLY BIG STICK on fire then whack the bear with it. Or it can run up and kick it.

Honestly, the real question is how the bear could win in the fight.

Okay, let's put up the stats.
A bear is Size 1, has an edge in Vigor and Strength, and also has tough hide.
The goliath has Size 2, and can breathe fire.
The first problem here, is that the goliath has average stats, so it's solely reliant on it's size giving extra strength and vigor. While the bear is as strong and tough as a bear.
So this means, the bear will probably beat you up, not to mention whatever edges it gets for hindrances.
The goliath would be reliant on scaring the bear away, as the bear will maul it to death in melee (never fight a bear in melee).
The fire breath isn't as powerful as you'd think it is. It's just a size 2 creature, if the bear is determined enough, it can still survive the first burst, and then maul you to death.

Dragons have flight, which is important, as the fire breath isn't as immediately lethal against powerful targets (like a bear).
But bears aren't exactly slow, so you'll either run forever, trying to outlast something with more Vigor than you.
Or you'll do 2 or 3 fire breaths, hoping it'll do sufficient damage, or else it'll maul you to death.

[Andres]

The fire breath isn't as powerful as you'd think it is. It's just a size 2 creature, if the bear is determined enough, it can still survive the first burst, and then maul you to death.

I think of this as a "size 0" fire breath. I don't care how determined that bear is, if it gets hit with that it's going down. Fire is all kinds of hot, especially when there's lots of it.


EDIT: I think Size is too cheap at the moment. Let's take a look at Size+2 and compare it to other 2pt traits. Protection+2 is classified as "natural leather armour" but it's kinda pointless when your opponent can hit you with tree trunks. A guy with d6 strength can't punch out a guy whose knees he barely reaches. Hard to Kill matters little when you're getting eaten whole. Defense+2 will only let your arm get more skillfully broken by your opponent's Buster Sword (which he calls a short sword). Martial Arts guy will have as much trouble boxing him to death as the d6 strength guy.
I can see Size+2 getting hard-countered by Speed+2 and maybe Flight but that's it.

[IcyTea31]

Yes but the goliath can just swing its rex-sized fist and pulp the bear's face (using cube law to its advantage). Or pick up a REALLY BIG STICK and whack the bear with it. Or it can light the bear's fur on fire. Or it can light the REALLY BIG STICK on fire then whack the bear with it. Or it can run up and kick it.

Honestly, the real question is how the bear could win in the fight.

The goliath could hardly do any of that. Let's say it is 7 times larger than a human in every direction, making it the size of an upright T. rex. Its muscle area, and thus strength, has grown to 7² times that of a normal human. 49x the strength is pretty nice, no? However, its body volume, and thus mass, has grown to 7³ times, or 343x that of a normal human. Oops. It would struggle to carry its own weight, making it extremely slow and clumsy and giving the bear plenty of time to avoid any and all attacks and get in position to attack its weakpoint for massive damage. That's the square/cube law in action. It also works in the other direction, by the way; it is why insects are so strong for their size.

I think of this as a "size 0" fire breath. I don't care how determined that bear is, if it gets hit with that it's going down. Fire is all kinds of hot, especially when there's lots of it.

It can take a human body half an hour to burn down, and a large bear even longer. It would not just 'go down', even if our ridiculously clumsy goliath somehow managed to hit it. A flamethrower's strength lies in intimidation, not any sort of combat effectiveness. They stopped using them after WWI for a reason.

[Dutrius]

Sorry, I've been unavailable all week.

[Andres]

It would struggle to carry its own weight, making it extremely slow and clumsy and giving the bear plenty of time to avoid any and all attacks and get in position to attack its weakpoint for massive damage.

So if a bear fought a t-rex the bear would win because the t-rex would be so extremely slow and clumsy to do anything but die?

That's the square/cube law in action. It also works in the other direction, by the way; it is why insects are so strong for their size.

It's a bit more complex than that. While insects are good at lifting, pulling, pushing, etc., they lack low strike force for their relative strength because of science reasons. Throw two pebbles at each-other and neither will be damaged. Do the same with large boulders at the same speed relative to their size and they'll at least crack.

A flamethrower's strength lies in intimidation, not any sort of combat effectiveness. They stopped using them after WWI for a reason.

They used them at least until Vietnam. Also, they were only decommissioned because of the changes in modern warfare.

It is primarily used against battlefield fortifications, bunkers, and other protected emplacements. A flamethrower projects a stream of flammable liquid, rather than flame, which allows bouncing the stream off walls and ceilings to project the fire into blind and unseen spaces, such as inside bunkers or pillboxes.
...
Flamethrowers have not been in the U.S. arsenal since 1978, when the Department of Defense unilaterally stopped using them. They have been deemed of questionable effectiveness in modern combat and the use of flame weapons is always a public relations issue due to the horrific death they inflict.

[IcyTea31]

So if a bear fought a t-rex the bear would win because the t-rex would be so extremely slow and clumsy to do anything but die?

In the case where these are trained fighters shapeshifted into beasts, yes.

It's a bit more complex than that. While insects are good at lifting, pulling, pushing, etc., they lack low strike force for their relative strength because of science reasons.

Yes, the power of an impact depends on both its speed and the weight of the weapon. But the strength of a bear's claws is not entirely in impact power: they're sharp. And with a sharp weapon, speed prevails, as do critical hits. Consider the bear climbing up to the goliath's throat and slowly but surely cutting a few essential blood vessels. Due to its size-induced clumsiness, the goliath would be hard pressed to fight against this.

Throw two pebbles at each-other and neither will be damaged. Do the same with large boulders at the same speed relative to their size and they'll at least crack.

That's because of inertia, where mass does indeed make a difference. Since the boulders won't move so easily, they absorb the energy of the impact and get damaged. Heavier stuff is more difficult to move. Inertia is exactly why the goliath would be so clumsy: not enough strength to move limbs and such at the agility of a regular-sized human.

Actually, now that I think of it, would its heart be strong enough to pump enough blood for the brain through the longer and larger blood vessels?

[Happy Demon]

It would struggle to carry its own weight, making it extremely slow and clumsy and giving the bear plenty of time to avoid any and all attacks and get in position to attack its weakpoint for massive damage.

So if a bear fought a t-rex the bear would win because the t-rex would be so extremely slow and clumsy to do anything but die?

The goliath is not a t-rex, it lacks the strength and vigor edges.

Also, it would have to grab the tree trunk with both arms, and swing it slowly, because it's still just elephant size.
Actually, humans in general have problems swinging big weapons, so it's like swinging a buster sword (a bit lighter, but the point still stands). We can carry it, sure, but swinging it is another problem. There's a reason swords only weigh a few pounds. Though blunt weapons went to heavier, even the pole arms were lighter than a sledgehammer.
The tree would either have to be thin, or the bear might just close the distance between swings (this is comparison of shape shifting, so they can still be smart).

The fire breath isn't as powerful as you'd think it is. It's just a size 2 creature, if the bear is determined enough, it can still survive the first burst, and then maul you to death.

I think of this as a "size 0" fire breath. I don't care how determined that bear is, if it gets hit with that it's going down. Fire is all kinds of hot, especially when there's lots of it.


EDIT: I think Size is too cheap at the moment. Let's take a look at Size+2 and compare it to other 2pt traits. Protection+2 is classified as "natural leather armour" but it's kinda pointless when your opponent can hit you with tree trunks. A guy with d6 strength can't punch out a guy whose knees he barely reaches. Hard to Kill matters little when you're getting eaten whole. Defense+2 will only let your arm get more skillfully broken by your opponent's Buster Sword (which he calls a short sword). Martial Arts guy will have as much trouble boxing him to death as the d6 strength guy.
I can see Size+2 getting hard-countered by Speed+2 and maybe Flight but that's it.

That's nitrogen propelled gasoline, and the capacity of that flamethrower only allows 7 seconds of burning.
Oh, and that's not the equivalent of a size 0 creature, as a size 0 creature couldn't have a capacity of that size.
I'd say that's size 2, as even a bear would have to sacrifice required internal organs to fit that thing.

But then you have the fact that a fantasy creature couldn't generate such a system.
That's compressed nitrogen, in order to breathe that hard, you'll have to dedicate torso muscles to that. Lowering the arm strength (pectorals make the punch).
This means the range isn't going to be 40 meters, and last I checked, animals don't make the same oil that's used in gasoline.

But that doesn't even matter.
As the stats are what determines everything. Having a creature that's bigger than a bear, is only going to increase damage and health. While the bear has damage, health, armor, and due to being smaller, has an easier time hitting you than you on him.
You only have a ranged attack and the ability to use weapons. And a club, even if you're bigger, wont deal more damage than the bear's claws. Unless you grab a really big one, which will induce a penalty due to wielding a weapon too heavy for you to effectively use it.
You're going to have to constantly run away, the size may give you an advantage in speed, but every time you attack them, you can only do standard movement, while they can do double.
This, combined with cone attacks being short range, means the bear can end up right in your face every time you attack, and it'll threaten the tiles you stand on, so you'll take an attack of opportunity every time you run away.

[Stirk]

It looks like Andres is assuming things again.

The Shapeshifter Edge is broken. Hardened Shapeshifter allows transformation into a bear or a member T2 race. A T2 race potentially means humans the size of t-rexes that can breathe fire.* Why would any Shapeshifter turn into a bear in combat rather than a fire-breathing goliath?

* T2=5pt. [Because Dragons (3pt)]+[Size+2 (2pt)]=5pt

Would someone who had [Spellcasting(fire magic) d12] be better at using fire magic than someone who had [Spellcasting d12] or would they be just as good but be incompetent at everything else?  I think something like that was mentioned in the thread but I couldn't find any reference to specificity rules in the OP and I didn't want to assume.

EDIT: You may also want to change the title in the IC thread. It still says it's Tick 2.

No, you just really don't understand the mechanics. Size+2 or Because Dragons aren't powerful enough to make you a God compared to a normal human, let alone a bear.

Yes but the goliath can just swing its rex-sized fist and pulp the bear's face (using cube law to its advantage). Or pick up a REALLY BIG STICK and whack the bear with it. Or it can light the bear's fur on fire. Or it can light the REALLY BIG STICK on fire then whack the bear with it. Or it can run up and kick it.

Honestly, the real question is how the bear could win in the fight.

T-rexes have tiny fists. A rex-sized fist is smaller than a normal fist! Anyway, the bear stabs it and it dies. The same way dragonslayers have done it for eternity. Again, you are really overestimating the abilities of size and breathing fire in this game.

The fire breath isn't as powerful as you'd think it is. It's just a size 2 creature, if the bear is determined enough, it can still survive the first burst, and then maul you to death.

I think of this as a "size 0" fire breath. I don't care how determined that bear is, if it gets hit with that it's going down. Fire is all kinds of hot, especially when there's lots of it.


EDIT: I think Size is too cheap at the moment. Let's take a look at Size+2 and compare it to other 2pt traits. Protection+2 is classified as "natural leather armour" but it's kinda pointless when your opponent can hit you with tree trunks. A guy with d6 strength can't punch out a guy whose knees he barely reaches. Hard to Kill matters little when you're getting eaten whole. Defense+2 will only let your arm get more skillfully broken by your opponent's Buster Sword (which he calls a short sword). Martial Arts guy will have as much trouble boxing him to death as the d6 strength guy.
I can see Size+2 getting hard-countered by Speed+2 and maybe Flight but that's it.

Yes, you ASSUME that. We told you to stop with that. There is nothing indicating that Because Dragon's fire breathing ability scales with size either, and your assumption is likely false. There is also the fact they have a decent chance of missing (Assuming d6 generic, that means they have a roughly 50% chance of hitting anything). Size +2 makes you the size of a woolly mammoth, size 0 makes you the size of a woolly mammoth hunter. Size +3 makes you the size of a wale, size 0 makes you the size of a whaler. Strength+2 wouldn't give him a d6 strength. D6 is default for all NPCs, and that seems to be the case in this game. +2 would give him d10 Strength (One point from normal max), making it easier to damage the opponent while likely being stronger than the larger creature (who could easily have D6 stats still). You are ASSUMING things again, and you really should have seen enough anime to realize how humaniod creatures can cut up larger enemies without problems. Not to mention just shoot them, in your example they would have no natural armor and a Toughness of 6, meaning a guy with a bow and a turn of distance away can put a couple of arrows into him without any problem. You also don't realize that parry doesn't take size into account. Even if they somehow lifted up a tree-trunk at size +2 (Protip: Elephants can't do this) and swung it at a dagger-wielding skilled opponent with Defense+2, the skilled opponent will easily parry it. To put it this way, A True Dragon (Who has size +3) will probably get wrecked by a decently powerful Agent like Henrietta, with the size not mattering any more than the other +3 traits the dragon gets.

It can take a human body half an hour to burn down, and a large bear even longer. It would not just 'go down', even if our ridiculously clumsy goliath somehow managed to hit it. A flamethrower's strength lies in intimidation, not any sort of combat effectiveness. They stopped using them after WWI for a reason.

Hey! Don't knock the flame-thrower! Well, not that much at least. They increased its use in WWII from WWI, drastically in fact. The flamethrower doesn't have to turn its target into ash any more then a normal gun has to turn its enemy into tiny chunks, its not like it takes 30 minutes to kill something using the weapon. They where effective at clearing fortified positions (their main use, given their comparatively limited range and the fact fires work really well in the places they are trying to hit.) After all, if your trench or bunker is on fire, it really isn't defensible anymore  . After that war, their use went down, but they still where used in Vietnam and Korea by America. Again the side effects where useful here, having fire in a jungle environment has its advantages (for the same reason they famously used Napalm). Realistically, their tactical role just got taken by other incendiary weapons. Several countries have replaced traditional flamethrowers with incendiary rocket "Flamethrowers" that remove many of the conventional weapon's problems improving the design significantly.

They used them at least until Vietnam. Also, they were only decommissioned because of the changes in modern warfare.

I just went over that^, but wanna point out that "modern warfare" started in/around WWII and Korea.

Yes, the power of an impact depends on both its speed and the weight of the weapon. But the strength of a bear's claws is not entirely in impact power: they're sharp. And with a sharp weapon, speed prevails, as do critical hits. Consider the bear climbing up to the goliath's throat and slowly but surely cutting a few essential blood vessels. Due to its size-induced clumsiness, the goliath would be hard pressed to fight against this.

The Goliath also wouldn't have any natural defenses or weapons in this scenario. The claws would be (by game mechanics) anything from daggers to short-swords, it is very possible for the bear to kill the larger enemy in a single hit if they get a good roll. They wouldn't have to do anything special, just mauling it across the chest would kill it in seconds (again, they Goliath would have the physical characteristics of a normal, squishy human. A bear digging into a single location with 5+ hits is going to leave a bloody mess that is going to break any internal organs the creature has in the area.)

To bring this size comparison down, a wolverine won't make it to a human's waist, but a human facing a wolverine in a sword fight would probably loose. That would be a size -1 v size 0 fight, where you could see size zero guy being at a massive disadvantage despite being the larger combatant.

[IcyTea31]

So what you're saying is, size doesn't matter, it's how you use it? _^Teehee.

[Stirk]

So what you're saying is, size doesn't matter, it's how you use it? _^Teehee.

You will pay dearly for that.

[hector13]

So what you're saying is, size doesn't matter, it's how you use it? _^Teehee.

You will pay dearly for that.

I thought it was quite clever.

It will also hopefully stop people doing gigaposts of nonsense!

[Happy Demon]

So what you're saying is, size doesn't matter, it's how you use it? _^Teehee.

You will pay dearly for that.

I thought it was quite clever.

It will also hopefully stop people doing gigaposts of nonsense!

Eh, I like gigaposts. It takes dedication to keep yourself coherent, without just not posting the message in the first place.
Though it may be a bit annoying to see a page of new posts, but half the text is in 3 of the 15 posts.

I just like the threads being active.

[Rolepgeek]

...I'm fairly sure that a human with a sword against a wolverine would kill it fairly easily, if they knew how to use said sword. Tough skin doesn''t prevent large pieces of sharp metal from impaling you.

Assuming the square-cube law applies in this universe when we have a hollow world where gravity is to the crust also seems like a mistake. So does assuming it applies just a powerfully. The T-Rex existed. It was not massively easy prey afaik for raptors, despite raptors being far smaller, faster, and more agile than it. 'Big'=/=clumsy. In this scenario, the Goliath would be just as fast and agile as a normal human, if you're assuming they're just as squishy as well. Their skin would actually probably be thicker, and their bones would be much larger, and likewise if you're really big, punching down isn't that hard (the bear's going to dodge the punch? What? Are they the Prince of Bearsia now?), but still hits pretty damn hard. So is dropping to a knee while the bear's trying to climb it. Trying to make purely physical comparisons based on natural weapons or armor is stupid. It's like asking who wins in a straight one-on-one fight, Sun Tzu or a ninja assassin. I mean, Andres being dumb about it too since Size does not trump all and there's easily reasons to be not want to be gigantic during a fight, but still.

Oh, sidenote, I'd like to make the Mask Bearers Tier 1 and give them [Skill: Stealth+1]