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Poll

Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion/debate?

Yes
- 21 (27.3%)
No
- 45 (58.4%)
Not decided entirely, maybe
- 11 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?  (Read 30334 times)

wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2015, 04:22:43 pm »

Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you got, 'till it's gone?

OR

How americans sacrifice freedoms for the illusions of safety and comfort, and thus deserve neither.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2015, 04:53:01 pm »

Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you got, 'till it's gone?

ORmoder

How americans sacrifice freedoms for the illusions of safety and comfort, and thus deserve neither.
Nah it's even worse because you won't even know it's gone. With things like delisting and bread and circus distractions you don't get streisand effects because people don't know what's being censored or if they're being censored or if the mainstream narratives are all there is to it. Then there's self censorship of course, with moderators and janitors not just trying to control their own communities, but also disrupt, destroy or take over communities not yet under their control.
https://pando.com/2015/02/04/the-geometry-of-censorship-and-satire/
Someone on bay12 posted this before, I've forgotten who? Anyways it's all about this culture of conformity.
Quote
Last year, Pew conducted a study on how social media lived up to its promise of breaking elitist-imposed conformism by allowing a more democratic sharing of unpopular opinions. Using the controversial issue of the day—the Edward Snowden leaks—what they discovered was that social media’s horizontal model was creating a far worse culture of conformity than before. In fact, people were twice as likely to share their opinion about the Snowden controversy in person (86%) than on social media (42%); and regular users of social media were far more prone to self-censorship and group-think both online and off-line than those who weren’t regular social media users
Which suggests that the internet is an active detriment to mass intellectual discourse, and places where it happens are exceptions to the rule. The SJW raids of 4chan I find are an entertaining insight into this, and do suggest that commercial interests are merely part of a larger progressive hatred of anonymity. I remember the first half-hearted raids where SJWs tried flooding the imageboards with porn and the Anons never really noticed they were being raided, or when they tried flooding /q/ with requests to delete the "problematic" boards until /q/ got deleted. Then luggage lad saga happened, all the Anons from /d/ to /mlp/ and even some of the massive anarchic ones like /b/, /v/ and /pol/ got holocausted by SJW infiltrators. Different from Scruffy who hit /tg/ (and I always love that it was a mod from /d/ that blew the first whistle here, even Slaanesh likes freedom of speech, or perhaps just blowing whistles), the quality of the boards reached critical shit and never recovered. They didn't become SJW but /int/ tier shitposting had become the norm, disruption had been achieved where subversion was impossible. Plus there is that amusing phenomenon where internet communities create cryptolects to identify outsiders, identify the ingroup and to confuse mainstream lurkers. That's why you have dialogical heteronormative transpanromantyc polybigendermysigony or the dank memes UUUU POO POO PEE PEE e.t.c. that no one who has not lurked for a while would understand.

So basically to answer the OP's question again after some thought...

Yes, absolutely it discourages intellectual discussion and debate.

Baffler

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2015, 05:07:42 pm »

Maybe what we should ask ourselves isn't "does the internet discourage discussion" but "does the internet discourage discussion more than other forms of communication?" After all, just because it's possible to stifle discussion doesn't mean it always happens, or even that someone will try. I still maintain that the internet fosters discussion, if only because it's without compare when it comes to getting a medium for people to actually talk to each other. If we didn't have it we wouldn't be able to discuss certain glaring issues, because we wouldn't even realize they existed. Look at how US media is handling Edward Snowden's case. If there was no internet, would anyone at all think he wasn't just some fucking traitor that deserves what he gets? It's not like anyone can get The Guardian around here.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2015, 05:08:58 pm »

What profit is gained from this? There is nothing to market in silencing something, and they would be losing the opportunity to publish a catchy headline. The only profit is political capital. Why does the CIA fund the BBC? Why does the EU fund the BBC? Why does Putin fund Sputnik and RT? For profit? No, narrative control.
Right, but look at the bigger picture: Let's say that the BBC "silences" an incident involving crime, immigrants, revolting vice, etc. etc., and then Baitfart or some other "truthy" site picks up the story and adds a healthy dose of ass-facts and hyperbole to boost its sexiness to masterbait levels. Then the "censored" story goes viral and Hatebook et al. are filled to the brim with progs and wingnuts screaming bloody murder at each other. And then the BBC---along with every other news outlet in the country---publishes a billion articles and editorials about the "controversy" and how terrible, terrible it all is (and of course, Milo & the Boys also get their chance to scream "CENSER SHIP" until they're puking blood). The answer to "why did the BBC relinquish those clicks" is that they ultimately didn't. Nothing was really censored because censorship is a fucking joke on the net---the governments know it, Hatebook knows it, and even the BBC knows it. They just cannot publish it outright because of certain political aspects, as you said, but also because they've got a brand to maintain: their main selling-point is that they're not The Sun. "The BBC is a bland and inaccurate, but at least respectable media!"...so very British, so very safe.

You may be right about the CIA owning BBC, for all I know/care, but the more important point is that all news outlets are fuckin pwned by click-pushing, outrage-pimping, content-farming social media, and all social media (as well as the CIA) are owned by the <0.001% financial elite, as can be expected. If you're trying to figure out who's pulling the strings behind this mess, you should always keep in mind that the ideology of The City/Wall-Street/Illuminati-Pyramid is under no circumstances PC or progressivism or SocJus or any of that soppy hippie shit. Hint: it starts with "m" and rhymes with "honey."

EDIT:
https://pando.com/2015/02/04/the-geometry-of-censorship-and-satire/
Someone on bay12 posted this before, I've forgotten who? Anyways it's all about this culture of conformity.
I commented on that piece in the progressive thread.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 05:21:13 pm by SirQuiamus »
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2015, 05:16:40 pm »

Comment sections are poison: handle with care or remove them
Comments are often regarded as a right but they can do more harm than good. In the absence of strict moderation, we’d be much better off without them

These fucks are the same ones on Neogaf


The most ironic thing is that the author of that article, while trying to advance a feminist narrative, plays right into the stereotype of women being overly sensitive crybabies.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2015, 11:34:00 pm »

Spoiler: tl;dr (click to show/hide)

I commented on that piece in the progressive thread.
I find the topic of whether the West is better or worse than Russia in this regard very much like arguing whether the West loses more people to drug addiction than Russia or not

But this point:
real censorship is most successful when you don't know it's there.
Nailed it, and is my tl;dr

Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2015, 11:42:13 pm »

Oh and because I spent a lot of time making a well-constructed post, have a shitpost so low quality it's actually a shitrepost

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-34592186
A lengthy planning document from China's elite State Council explains that social credit will "forge a public opinion environment that trust-keeping is glorious", warning that the "new system will reward those who report acts of breach of trust".
A national database will merge a wide variety of information on every citizen, assessing whether taxes and traffic tickets have been paid, whether academic degrees have been rightly earned and even, it seems, whether females have been instructed to take birth control.
Credit systems build trust between all citizens, Wen Quan says.
"Without a system, a conman can commit a crime in one place and then do the same thing again in another place. But a credit system puts people's past history on the record. It'll build a better and fairer society," she promises.


better and fairer
better and fairer
better and fairer

A  concerted effort by the government to force  B E T T E R  A N D  F A I R E R .




                                                                               -10 points

Morrigi

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2015, 01:08:43 am »

Coming to an English community near you!
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2015, 01:56:21 am »

I dream of a world where use of terms like "rape culture" and "cisnormative" and "privileged" are rightfully recognized as telltale indicators of severe paranoid insanity similar to "illuminati", "contrail", "fluoridation", "jet fuel can't melt steel beams", or wearing a hat made out of foil.

EDIT:
Also, has anybody else picked up on the sinister implication that not being randomly beaten by rednecks or shot by the police is a "privilege" rather than right?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 02:00:31 am by Bohandas »
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wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2015, 02:00:48 am »

Fluoridation might not belong in that list, at least for countries with inexpensive access to quality oral hygiene products.

There actually is some reputable research to show that ingested fluoride ion at the prescribed concentrations in conjunction with fluoride ion containing tooth pastes and mouth washes, is harmful to tooth and bone health later in life.

Citation

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1752-7325.1986.tb03140.x/abstract


Re: not being beaten as priveledge

"Amurica is Number ONE!!"

As long as the majority of the population clings to that canard, they will tolerate horrific abuses and conditions. See for example Nor... Erm.. "True Korea!" (Its BEST Korea!), and the shockingly horrible pandemics of cataracts and other preventable/treatable diseases. The population is willing to tolerate these abuses/institutional neglect, because North korea is BEST Korea.

Similar in the US-- Police raiding people's houses and confiscating everhything on trumped up charges under civil forfieture laws, and the panopticon of three letter agencies is OK, because it Keeps America Safe, and America is Number One!!

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 02:12:11 am by wierd »
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IcyTea31

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2015, 06:57:03 am »

My two cents on the OP:

A part of all discussion, online or offline, is something that could be defined as 'intellectual'. Offline, it can be difficult to debate intellectually due to concerns of distance, as well as fear of your opponent being able to get at you physically. The Internet solves both of these problems.

However, this leaves the non-intellectual discussion. It could be something useful, or meaningless noise, but it too takes advantage of the Internet, spreading to a much wider audience.

Overall, the Internet increases the volume of all discussion, as a medium as any other, including intellectual debate. We could say that it does encourage it, and that is why I answered 'yes' on the poll.

The real question is, "does modern society in general discourage intellectual discussion and debate?" If we want to enhance the ratio of intellectual discussion to other discussion, we should look deeper than media such as the Internet. Education on how to be critical about media could be a start.
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wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2015, 08:26:52 am »

Teaching actual critical thinking skills is often discouraged in schools, because actual critical thinking encourages students to question authority figures such as teachers, and to question all of the data presented to them, including the lecture material of the day.

At leas tin US schools, this pisses teachers off, because they seem to have a pathological hatred of having to validate the subject matter of their lessions, and also a pathological fear of losing face in front of students.

The natural confluence there is that the public education system serves to discourage rather than encourage critical thinking skills, on the average.
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Tiruin

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2015, 08:33:38 am »

Going to make a long post about this (but I'm deadly busy x_x at the moment), but in regards to the topic at hand: No, the internet does not discourage intellectual discussion and debate. The Internet is a medium of communication--HOW certain people [choose to] communicate is where discouragement or encouragement of intellectual discussion and debate begins, especially in regards to the scope of who is actually discussing and debating.

I'd...like the OP to be more informative instead of approaching this in a generalizing tone. Especially given that 'the internet' is international, instead of just one culture or society being focused on.
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2015, 08:42:41 am »

As well people being more willing to open up in person then "over the internet" is common.

One takes effort and the other doesn't
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2015, 08:53:08 am »

As well people being more willing to open up in person then "over the internet" is common.

One takes effort and the other doesn't
Except that we saw with the Snowden leaks, people were twice less likely to voice their opinion on the matter than they would in real life. Anonymity is one factor, another is that what you say on the internet does not necessarily come down if you wish to retract it. What you say in real life disappears with the wind and people's memory, on the internet it's there for good

The real question is, "does modern society in general discourage intellectual discussion and debate?" If we want to enhance the ratio of intellectual discussion to other discussion, we should look deeper than media such as the Internet. Education on how to be critical about media could be a start.
Please no, Western education is already anti free speech we do not need critical media studies any more than we needed critical theory studies.

Quote
Peace Journalism is now a globally distributed reform movement of reporters, academics and activists from Africa to the Antipodes. Academic courses are now being taught in the UK, Australia, the USA, Mexico, South Africa, Costa Rica, Norway, Sweden and many others.
Peace Journalism is defined “when editors and reporters make choices - of what to report, and how to report it - that create opportunities for society at large to consider and value non-violent responses to conflict” (Lynch and McGoldrick, 2005)
http://www.peacejournalism.org/Peace_Journalism/Welcome.html

I'm so glad I have peace journalists willing to lie, suppress and spin in order to "highlight peace ideas and initiatives from anywhere at any time." Warms my loins, truly, to know the pursuit of impartiality isn't even fucking worth it. Fuck actual victims, we peace narratives now.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:02:18 am by Loud Whispers »
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