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Poll

Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion/debate?

Yes
- 21 (27.3%)
No
- 45 (58.4%)
Not decided entirely, maybe
- 11 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?  (Read 30432 times)

penguinofhonor

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2015, 09:18:18 am »


It also doesn't take any effort to lie or hide things about yourself online. I think "people open up more over the internet" is a pretty big oversimplification based mainly on gut logic.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:20:11 am by penguinofhonor »
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2015, 09:22:27 am »


It also doesn't take any effort to lie or hide things about yourself online. I think "people open up more over the internet" is a pretty big oversimplification based mainly on gut logic.

There have been studies! which suggests people are EXTRA honest.

Except when "roleplaying"
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Egan_BW

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2015, 09:34:14 am »

In life, some conversations are intended to be intellectual, while others are intentional shitposting. However, sometimes lack of clarity will render what was supposed to be a serious conversation into shitposts. The internet overall increases the clarity of coversation][Citation needed], so discussion over internet will overall increase the occurrence of intellectual discussion.
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2015, 11:01:47 am »

Quote
Peace Journalism is now a globally distributed reform movement of reporters, academics and activists from Africa to the Antipodes. Academic courses are now being taught in the UK, Australia, the USA, Mexico, South Africa, Costa Rica, Norway, Sweden and many others.
Peace Journalism is defined “when editors and reporters make choices - of what to report, and how to report it - that create opportunities for society at large to consider and value non-violent responses to conflict” (Lynch and McGoldrick, 2005)
http://www.peacejournalism.org/Peace_Journalism/Welcome.html

I'm so glad I have peace journalists willing to lie, suppress and spin in order to "highlight peace ideas and initiatives from anywhere at any time." Warms my loins, truly, to know the pursuit of impartiality isn't even fucking worth it. Fuck actual victims, we peace narratives now.

It's no worse that regular journalism, which is designed to create opportunities for society at large to consider and value the latest celebrity gossip
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2015, 11:06:42 am »

Spinning the news, history, information in order to create a narrative has been taught for a looooong time and this new "Peace reporting" is no different.
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TempAcc

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2015, 11:10:33 am »

Its not like journalism today isn't biased as all hell.

Anyway, on the topic of the actual OP, the internet is just another medium for communication. There's nothing inherent to it that discourages intellectual discussion or debate, and everything that affects it as a medium today also affects other mediums as well. There's shitposting, SJWs, dweebs and etc in every media, they're just easier to spot on the internet since the internet is a very special type of medium, since its not almost completely expository, like TV, radio, newspapers etc. Most of the content on the internet is produced by the average user, rather than news companies and similar entities. The internet actively encourages you, the average joe type user, to participate in the creation of content.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2015, 12:42:38 pm »

*massive tl;dr*
Great post! All that detailed stuff about British media is mighty interesting, but I'm not going to get into it right now (too time-consuming). I'll just make another comment on the phenomenon at large, to figure out what we're actually talking about here:

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:05:12 pm by SirQuiamus »
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Neonivek

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2015, 01:13:38 pm »

I dream of a world where use of terms like "rape culture" and "cisnormative" and "privileged" are rightfully recognized as telltale indicators of severe paranoid insanity similar to "illuminati", "contrail", "fluoridation", "jet fuel can't melt steel beams", or wearing a hat made out of foil.

The issue is that they have been overblown to such extreme degrees that any semblance of their original meaning or even being flat out meaningful has been lost.

Bastardized to being pointless.

Are we a little too disturbingly interested in Rape? Yeah... Could our society even be influencing the rates? Of course nothing happens in a vacuum. Are we living in Rape Land? No
Is our society Cisnormative? Yeah... Is that unusual or even wrong? No... We learned years ago that normal isn't normal :P
Are we privileged? Yeah... Should we remember that when we refer to the less privileged? Yeah... Is it some sort of brain rot? No...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:15:49 pm by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2015, 09:41:01 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I theorize that as long posts cannot be effectively replied to in a forum format, a forum without laconic sages afloat will inevitably approach 100% saturation with shitposts
G L O R Y G L O R Y
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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Close, but not exactly what I was getting at. In most cases you would be right me being critical of progressivism, as progressivism is all too fond of playing the locust to Egypt's Kingdom. Here? No, freedom of speech is much too valuable to be partisan over. That I talk of progressives doing all this is because they are doing all of this. Perhaps in a future date where Trump and his political legacy spawns a new right that engages in the same tactics you will hear me (or perhaps more significantly, won't) complaining about Google "complying" with "anti-extremism" delisting versus "anti-hate" delisting. Until then progressives remain the easiest vehicle to censorship and the largest driving force for it. #JenesuispasHebdo for example; edgy right wing people have zero qualms about offending someone whilst progressives framed the Hebdo massacre in "political context" proudly declaring "freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequences."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My great big post already refutes this. It's not about the clicks, narrative control is prime and politics its purpose. There is nothing "troll-outragy" as that is the domain of the Daily Mail or MSNBC, and no one will deny two of the most politically slanted tabloids have nothing to do with politics. Nor does it cover the serious papers like the Guardian or Telegraph which are dead serious, but still take sides and do things which don't make less commercial sense than political sense.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Where does it seem to be nothing in it for them? That is not a conclusion I would have come to. Moreover I am not too concerned with how genuine and sincere those working at the Huffington post are in their beliefs. Take for example the right-wing visual panic button that is the Daily Mail. A lot of its news articles are low quality (in terms of impartiality and accuracy) and its readership mostly working class people, who lack formal higher education. A lot of people in London snobbishly assume this is the result of plebians reporting to plebians, when it is the result of well-educated urbanites crafting their stories exactly to perfection.
For traditional progressive media this is much the same. Do the journalists and editors publishing whether airconditioning is sexist, whether it's sexist to see Jihadi brides as unequal to male Jihadis, or censoring feminists "is not really a point for debate" because of "transmisogyny" believe in this crap? For lower level workers, for the Guardian and for MSNBC yes. But for Huffington Post it's notable that Arianna Huffington was previously conservative before becoming progressive. So perhaps she is an opportunist with money in her eyes, same as the Barclay Brothers. People like her would not exist without a mass consumer base of believers, just as a non-believer megapriest cannot profit without devout believers.
Bland consumerism and progressivism go hand in hand; hence locusts to the Kingdom of Egypt. See rainbow Oreos, manufactured controversies in Media and the lynching of Firefox. You and I are not the first to notice this. Consumerism is not the driving force behind this, it's just taking advantage of progressives. If Arianna Huffington is just "a fucking stone-cold capitalist psychopath" as you say, progressives have made her job exceptionally easy. Obama got away with PRISM and Edward Snowden became a traitor because Obama supported gay marriage. It's too easy. I was most amused that amongst Swedes consumerism is absent amongst Swede children, yet they are the go-to for progressivism and are the forefront for social experimentation. Progressivism exists with or without consumerists taking advantage of it, as consumerists are want to do.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
See? "Exist on the internet." Protection on the progressive stack warrants killing free speech. Women and American minorities must have personalities present on the internet and must be protected from "harassment" online. This warrants an end to anonymity, surveillance and "no freedom from consequences." Consumerist agenda taking advantage of progressive agenda.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you wish to open the topic on immigration I would be happy to oblige, but the wall of text that would follow would be significant. If you wish to talk of consumerism and capitalism I have not much to add, as I've already shown where progressives have covered up "problematic things" that would "threaten social cohesion" in the run up to general elections divorced from commercial interests - and at any rate, we are in agreement on a disdain for consumerism. I disagree on this in that if I killed consumerism it would not get rid of progressives or make them stop doing retarded things like fucking over thousands of little girls for maintaining good feelings or fucking over freedom of information because of "hatefacts and hatespeech." Everything is oppression. Even now my country's communists are running their campaign on the basis of progressive multiculturalism, neo-marxist anticapitalism and anticonsumerist environmentalism where before it was progressive multiculturalism, mass immigration and globalization. Such things as money are quite disposable as far as the progressive agenda goes, and part of that agenda involves narrative control. There is no "theory" or secretive agenda, any less than you would be surprised to find a consumerist likes materialism, especially since progressives are happy enough to voice what they want. The intellectual bastions of progressivism are concerned with safe spaces, no-platforming dissidents, shadow banning opposing or divergent ideologies online and on digital and traditional media. Narrative control is one part of it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's no worse that regular journalism, which is designed to create opportunities for society at large to consider and value the latest celebrity gossip
A false comparison. Gossip magazines are worthless, yes - but they do not make false pretenses of being a trustworthy news source. A "global reform movement of reporters, academics and activists from Africa to the Antipodes, with academic courses being taught in the UK, Australia, the USA, Mexico, South Africa, Costa Rica, Norway, Sweden and many others," teaching editors not only to control narratives but teach them that they must is considerably, considerably worse.

Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2015, 03:03:15 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's no worse that regular journalism, which is designed to create opportunities for society at large to consider and value the latest celebrity gossip
A false comparison. Gossip magazines are worthless, yes - but they do not make false pretenses of being a trustworthy news source. A "global reform movement of reporters, academics and activists from Africa to the Antipodes, with academic courses being taught in the UK, Australia, the USA, Mexico, South Africa, Costa Rica, Norway, Sweden and many others," teaching editors not only to control narratives but teach them that they must is considerably, considerably worse.

I'm not talking about gossip magazines, I'm talking about the TV news, most of which is either celebrity gossip (including some news which at first glance appears to be legitimately politically informative; "OMG Hillary Clinton used a poor choice of words to describe the Bengazi attack!?") or else sometimes even just regular gossip (Human interest pieces. The Jonbenet Ramsey murder. etc.)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 03:05:25 pm by Bohandas »
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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2015, 04:49:00 pm »

Here is where I personally draw the line on such issues--

Does the person trying to "step up" use thier resources to actually give voice to a social minority (as in a charity group that provides enabling services, but has no message of its own)-- OR-- Does the person trying to "step up" raise their resources to raise their own voice, on a topic they innately can know nothing about?

The former, I have no problem with.  This is a good thing, and allows actually repressed or disadvantaged people to hold the mic, and let the world hear them.

The latter, I have a serious problem with. This is a bad thing. It is hypocrisy incarnate, as instead of the actual situations faced by the targeted minority getting spoken about, it is instead purely the opinion and rhetoric of people of privelege, working themselves into a rabid lather over what they THINK those people experience. This poisons the actual social discussion by parading a caracature of the problem around with such loudness and grandure, that the actual voices of the actually disenfranchised gets smeared with it. This makes people who would otherwise be sensible, and sympathetic toward solving actual adversity become adverse to even listening, because of how radically batshit the characaturized version is.

Recent example from history:

Hearing about communism in the soviet union, from people who lived in the soviet union.
vs
Hearing about communism in the soviet union from Joe McCarthy, and his cronies. (Or from Stalin's PR machine, either one is just as bad.)


It is important to keep in mind that there does not need to be an obviously malign agenda, like with the prior example. People can truely mean well with thier interjections-- The problem persists though; They are raising their own (imagined) perception of the problem, rather than using their resources to hand the mic over to people that actually experience the problem.  When that happens, they drown out the signal, and make only noise.
It is more that SJWs kind of "Talk for them" and if the group they are speaking for disagrees well "They are just brainwashed".

Not that the reverse doesn't happen where a group goes "No one can have an opinion on this unless they are us"

--

So you get a LOT of situations where the SJWs are offended by something that the group in question is not.

A huge example is Speedy Gonzales from Loony Toons who have been banned for YEARS because "White People" thought it offended Mexicans... when in fact it was the opposite the Mexicans thought it was a great and positive character.

And honestly the examples are rather long if I chose to list them all.

Another great example of both these phenomena would be the two-faced sanctimonious money-grubbing crypto-nazis who run Autism Speaks
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Shadowlord

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2015, 06:49:38 pm »

I remember the first three estates:  The nobility, the clergy, and the common folk, not necessarily in that order. I'm not an historian. I wanted to make a Rick Perry joke, too. :'(

I'm not sure I buy the "schools don't teach critical thinking" hypothesis with regard to the SJWs mentioned at ivy league schools - how could you get into and stay in an ivy league college without it? That said, they could just have other delusional thinking patterns, right?

I'd consider myself progressive, but I don't particularly like people who think delusionally and think everyone else should join them in their delusional thinking, whether they're "progressive" or "conservative." For example, if you think that disagreeing with someone is equivalent to personally attacking them. Or anyone who ignores facts in order to believe a more convenient story for their worldview. For example, the forensic evidence proves that Michael Brown was charging when he was shot and killed - but that doesn't accord with the narrative so it's ignored for unreliable witness testimony. Of course, for many people it's entirely believable that the police would fake forensic evidence to exonerate an officer - practically every time there's a shooting with a video released later it seems like the initial report by the police officers involved is completely untrue.

On the original subject, it's certainly  possible to change your opinion in an internet discussion. Not getting into giant flamewars helps. Keeping an open mind helps. Recognizing when someone is right when they tell you that you're wrong helps (and controlling the urge to try to justify or make excuses for when you post something dumb and someone calls you on it, because doing that just tends to lead to flamewars).
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Flying Dice

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2015, 10:28:30 pm »

Schools aren't particularly good at teaching critical thinking, but a large part of that has the same root cause as these SJW university students apparently being incapable of it: willful ignorance. It's not that they can't, but that on some level they're aware that rationally and reasonably approaching much of their core worldview would result in it crumbling, and they are too thoroughly emotionally invested in their narratives to be willing to do that. Expecting rational thought from a SJW is like expecting it from a member of the WBC.
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jaked122

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2015, 12:41:55 am »

Just for some more interesting thought, there's a game theory here about authoritarianism They make a lot of assumptions that seem to point towards authoritarianism unilaterially leading to a stultifying society.


That's the worry is it not? Authoritarianism is horrible in any form, but it looks attractive because it pushes the problems we worry about off into the arms of a powerful and terrifying government.


The danger is that people deafen themselves to other arguments using the internet as an echochamber. No opinions outside the accepted range of that establishes are tolerated, therefore the best way to deal with this is to take away moderation tools, make it impossible for a SJW or a right wing fascist to remove comments contrary to their opinion, as is the case in real life.


Silence them through the noise of conflicting opinions, until we have a real discussion which doesn't consist of nonsense, this seems like a good way to perhaps force reconsideration.


Y'know, the SJW thing came up at my dinner table the other day. I reckon it boils down to this- the folks behind it are the folks that are empowered by the moral right that they feel they are deserved by their moral indignation. They don't need to logically defend their position, it's locked behind a sense of righteous superiority. Similarly, they'll get all indignant if they feel that the topic of their stance is improving (gender awareness, etc) and they're losing ground on a topic they can feel angry about.

It's about being right, and frankly, there's a very strong desire for netizens to be right. Here then is where we'll see the notion that internet discussion discourages debate, since people will go where they feel right and where other people feel they are also right, and so dissenting voices can get squelched. See also the terms 'hugbox' and 'circlejerk.'

I don't think, however, that these occurrences are the products of the internet itself, nor does it limit discussion- all involved are still people, and it's people with whom we have discussions. It's a human issue, and one maybe exacerbated by the tools the 'net provides.


Yep. It's all about how it provides convenient echo chambers to hear their opinions voiced back at them. This gives them the idea that their ideas aren't garbage.


No idea should go unchallenged. No matter the beauty of the "morality" or the "simplicity" or the "righteousness". All just words for justifying a particularly strong opinion.


Maybe I'm a bit out there on this, but I think that a strong sense of morality is an obstacle when making a logical decision. It's all about benefit versus risk, that and seeking positive sum games.

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2015, 12:43:57 am »

Arguments get just as crazy, inconclusive, and even more violent when you're there in person -- the internet doesn't necessarily amplify it, it's just that the folks screaming get heard beyond the boundaries of their buildings.
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