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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[Sergarr]

ISIS doesn't have an actual state with Big Money™ backing them up and they're pretty dangerous. Though much of their rise has to do with filling in a vacuum and partially dumb luck.

ISIS was supported by rich Saudis until they managed to break out into financing themselves by capturing oil wells in Syria, because they were one of the factions "against Assad" and Saudi fucks financed everyone who's against Assad (they still do it, just with ISIS excluded).

What, do you really think they've managed to assemble all those thousands of well-trained fighters without outside help?

[TheBiggerFish]

... PTW.

[ggamer]

ISIS doesn't have an actual state with Big Money™ backing them up and they're pretty dangerous. Though much of their rise has to do with filling in a vacuum and partially dumb luck.

ISIS was supported by rich Saudis until they managed to break out into financing themselves by capturing oil wells in Syria, because they were one of the factions "against Assad" and Saudi fucks financed everyone who's against Assad (they still do it, just with ISIS excluded).

What, do you really think they've managed to assemble all those thousands of well-trained fighters without outside help?

most of those thousands are either Al-queda fighters left with nothing to do and rather longing for a good bit of beheading or Hussein's Ba'tharists who had a whole lot of military training and not enough people to kill with it. The rest are mostly disenfranchised sunni youth (who are deserting now that they realize this whole Jihad thing isn't worth getting bombed into a fine powder) who decided joining ISIL was better than getting shot by the fuckabouts running Iraq.

[Sergarr]

Also, don't know how credible this source is, but if it is, then the so-called "moderate jihadis" (who are BTW currently supported by Saudi/USA fucks who give them hundreds of TOWs along with other equipment) have just screwed themselves over hard:

Syria's Nusra Front backs Paris attacks, despite opposition to Islamic State

[RedKing]

Al-Nusra isn't one of the groups we're partnering with in Syria. In fact, their presence is a big reason almost nothing has gone to the Syrian opposition, specifically because of concerns of gear going to al-Nusra. Can't speak to whether the Saudis are backing them.

[ChairmanPoo]

Al Nusra is Syrian Al Quaeda and was BFF with ISIS until the latter started driving them out of the jihad market.

[ggamer]

Al Nusra is Syrian Al Quaeda and was BFF with ISIS until the latter started driving them out of the jihad market.

To expand on this: Al-Nusra and Al-Queda were once considered basically part and parcel with ISIL until ISIL announced the same deduction, whereupon the heads of Al-Nusra and Al-Queda got worried that others would doubt the size of their erections and announced "Fuck ISIL, we're jihading on our own, YOLO (In so many words)."

EDIT: When Netanyahu makes a smarter statement than georgia governor Nathan Deal...

[Loud Whispers]

Now NATO forces are negotiating with Putin and Assad to include the Syrian government faction in an invasion of Syria to see ISIS destroyed. Such a coalition would no doubt require that Assad be deposed upon completing the lengthy pacification of Syria.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have to disagree: While Daesh is horrible, the ophthalmologist and his forces are still the bigger evil. The relevant number here is five: It's the ratio of civilian casualties caused by the doctor's forces vs civilian casualties caused by Daesh. Daesh will be destroyed regardless of what happens right now, but Assad's regime has a chance of survival - and thus must be dealt with more urgently.

Also one important thing to mention is why Assad's forces have killed more than ISIS; Assad Loyalists use indiscriminate artillery and bombing to strike their enemy and keep themselves safe whilst ISIS has had their armour and artillery bombed to hell by Western forces - they do not have equal means, but this speaks to no show of intent. The allied strategic bombing over the Germans was out of no intent of genocide, it was an attempt to win the war and it can't be forgotten that the Syrian government is ultimately at war for their survival. Were ISIS to win I do not believe they would be nearly as reasonable to Western negotiations as Assad would be, as Assad can be coerced and forced in ways that would also not destroy what's left of Syria. The most stable of two evils, as it were. Just as dismantling Iraq's army left a power vacuum as soon as US forces left, dismantling the Syrian army will do exactly the same thing. People seem to have forgotten how quickly the "moderate rebels" Western nations funded turned into ISIS. The longer the war goes on the worse things will get, the more people will die and the more human rights abuses will continue. Counter productively, it will also mean people in Assad's regime will go unpunished, as the chaos means international law does nothing for Syria.

I have to agree with you there. War is terrible. Civilians will die in war (especially when the enemy uses them as human shields). Bombs are blind. I have been saying for years that one of the biggest mistakes made in Syria by the West, is to have demonized and alienated Assad. IS might have never gotten a hold on Syria if UN had sent forces to support Assad a few years ago. Hell, Assad would probably never have felt he would need to use gas and fuel bombs (or at least not dared do so with coalition forces riding next to him) on his population if he had had UN help.
It's not like Assad is doing worse things than for example, the US did to Vietnamese villages. Hey, they were hiding and supporting VC, right? Arguably, he is doing less bad, since he is not invading a foreign country, but defending his own.

There is no other option besides foreign occupation, Assad is really not the bigger of the two evils. Hell he's not just fighting a defensive war, if he loses then his people will all be purged - a third of fighting age Alawite men have already died, they cannot afford to lose more fighting extensively on the ground.

Yeah, i think partitioning Syria is the only option left. The north for the Kurds, the South for the Druze, the West for the Alawites and the Center and East for the Sunnis. sadly, Turkey and Iran would never agree. Russia might though. i don't think putin is stupid to think Assad could ever retain control in those parts.

Partitioning would be a colossally foolish idea, even worse than attempts in Nigeria or the successful partitioning of Pakistan and India. A divided Syria would simply not be able to resist Jihadism and even after the dust settles the long term effects of proxy groups all trying to effect their will on the fragments would reignite conflict just as in Yemen or Bahrein. Only, magnify that religious tension as the pieces would also border Israel, which hasn't had the best tract record of not taking advantage of regional instability, and you can guarantee at the very least Saudi Arabia and Iran would begin playing in this new ground. And that'd be after I reckon another 10 years of fighting, minimum. Assad's regime must end, and ISIS will fail to create its Caliphate; but the regime cannot be crushed without a pillar to replace it and ISIS will not be crushed if all efforts are not focused on it.

All according to plan
Unless negotiations fail to produce anything of note

[Graknorke]

Christ, it took long enough for them to figure that one out.

[Sergarr]

Pretty sure this has zero direct relationship with Paris attack, and we have a better thread for Middle East shenanigans.

[Vilanat]

Personally, I don't regard Saudi Arabia as civilized. If you want a civilized Muslim country, look at Jordan. Look at the UAE. Look at Brunei. Look at Qatar.

have you ever been to Jordan and/or Qatar?

[Helgoland]

Pretty sure this has zero direct relationship with Paris attack, and we have a better thread for Middle East shenanigans.

Yeah, the Mideast thread is still floating around somewhere.

I guess I'll put up a poll though: Should this thread slowly morph into the new Europol one? LW hasn't re-opened his so far...

[Sheb]

This is a nice read on interviews with ISIS prisoners.

[Bohandas]

How is that a muslim thing and not a human thing though? Warfare is endemic to humanity. It's almost like we enjoy splitting into factions, and beating each other over the head. Can we please stop saying we're all fucking above this, and saying that Islam is the one with the problem? Surely we all have enough sense to see that this is a human problem.

It's one illusion among many

[Loud Whispers]

I guess I'll put up a poll though: Should this thread slowly morph into the new Europol one? LW hasn't re-opened his so far...

Old one is dead, cannot unlock

Pretty sure this has zero direct relationship with Paris attack, and we have a better thread for Middle East shenanigans.

It's literally in direct response to the Paris attack