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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[Loud Whispers]

Maybe, but there was a massive window  where peace would have been possible if we'd simply not insisted on continually stirring the hornet's nest. Oh, sure: muslims today might have been killing each other right now, but there was no reason to turn that into our problem. Funding Afghanistani jihadists against the Soviets, overthrowling the democratically elected government of Iran, everything to do with Israel, putting Hussein into power then invading his country twice and killing him, CIA rape and torture camps...even looking only at the past ~70 years, the "muslim world" viewed as a group entity has a terribly long list of legitimate complaints against "the west" viewed as a group entity.
If we'd been minding our own business for the past 70 years, I doubt anyone over there would be very seriously concerned about catholic/muslim problems several centuries ago. Maybe, just maybe...if we mind our own business for the next 70 years they'll stop caring about problems of today.

I don't think you'll find someone here who thinks anything you said was a good thing. And if we're going to look at the muslim world as a group entity than the west has a terribly long list of legitimate complains against it, and for that matter the muslim world has a long list of grievances against itself that has been spilling over to Europe. It is our problem and if we'd have done nothing it'd still be our problem. It was our problem as soon as the borders were opened, we are now a part of the muslim world; ignoring the battles in the middle east will not bring peace anywhere else. Maybe America would have been left alone. At any rate after 70 years of doing nothing they'll have won by then, feel free to surrender yourself any time you want - pathetic defeatism is not for me.

Well this time, they need to fix the problems they made so maybe it would be acceptable to actually work with government in Iraq, Syria and try to fix Libya after fuck ups with a more military approach.

The West is still fixated on blowing up the Syrian government

[PanH]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

France didn't and said they would veto any UN proposition about it (which is why the USA didn't make a proposition and went without it). It was the only country in the security council to oppose the war.

[boki]

Well this time, they need to fix the problems they made so maybe it would be acceptable to actually work with government in Iraq, Syria and try to fix Libya after fuck ups with a more military approach.

The West is still fixated on blowing up the Syrian government

Yea, I know, that's why we are getting all this refugees in the first place. West fixation on blowing up things with little thoughts what will happen next.

[LordBucket]

feel free to surrender yourself any time you want - pathetic defeatism is not for me.

What bizarre world do you live in where the two choices you have are genocide or suicide?

It seems peculiar to me that you equate "stop being a jerk" with "surrender and die."

How does "stop meddling in the middle east" equate to "surrender?" how does it equate to "suicide?"

if we're going to look at the muslim world as a group entity than the west has a terribly long list of legitimate complains against it

I would be fascinated to see a compiled list of grievances over the past 70 years from both sides and your interpretation of the resulting comparison between them.

[Morrigi]

I'd have preferred if we'd been good allies with Iran since 65 years ago, remained neutral in the Iraq-Iran conflict and never become involved with Israel. The entire situation in the middle east would be completely different today. Western involvement in the middle east has been a continual comedy of errors since long before most of us were even born.

Agreed. We should not have fucked with Iran, and if they were our allies we wouldn't have needed Israel, which has caused us far more problems than is reasonable for what is supposed to be an ally. Iran could have been a modern, fully industrialized, semi-secular country by now if we put some effort into it.

Edit: Unfortunately, that simply isn't the case, and we must play the hand we are dealt. Personally, I like the "Make them believe that their checkpoint guards are being ripped apart by demons" card, but I don't think the UN would approve.

[Loud Whispers]

It seems peculiar to me that you equate "stop being a jerk" with "surrender and die."
How does "stop meddling in the middle east" equate to "surrender?" how does it equate to "suicide?"

You've equated taking action with "being mean." Asking that we sit tight for 70 years "taking punches."
Sitting and waiting for our killers' mercy.
If it wasn't this it'd be dictators in stable nations ruthlessly crushing dissidents. There is no choice between being a jerk and being a flower, there is only the choice in what crushes jihadism.

I would be fascinated to see a compiled list of grievances over the past 70 years from both sides and your interpretation of the resulting comparison between them.

I think we've seen enough of that yesterday.

[smjjames]

I would be fascinated to see a compiled list of grievances over the past 70 years from both sides and your interpretation of the resulting comparison between them.

I think we've seen enough of that yesterday.

You're supposed to start with 70 years ago, although IMO we should go back a 100 years.

[Loud Whispers]

You're supposed to start with 70 years ago, although IMO we should go back a 100 years.

No, to start is to take the bait. I won't forget bay12's fondness for hatefacts, listing grievances is "dangerous."

[Vilanat]

It's the West fault. The Romans should have never conquered Jerusalem.

[Strife26]

any ideas on how we can combat this?

Step interfering in the Middle East and let them sort out their own affairs.

Wisdom flies from his mouth.

[Sergarr]

It's the West fault. The Romans should have never conquered Jerusalem.

No, it's all God's fault. He never should have asked Moses to bring all these Jews into Jerusalem.

[Bohandas]

It's the West fault. The Romans should have never conquered Jerusalem.

The Romans should have forced Jerusalem to assimilate

[Vilanat]

any ideas on how we can combat this?

Step interfering in the Middle East and let them sort out their own affairs.

Wisdom flies from his mouth.

Contrary to popular belief, Syria is the result of the West not interfering and letting the Middle East sort our their own affairs.

[smjjames]

It's the West fault. The Romans should have never conquered Jerusalem.

No, it's all God's fault. He never should have asked Moses to bring all these Jews into Jerusalem.

Till Jerusalem=all the Middle East.

Whining and complaning about the past isn't going to change history or solve things. Yes it would have been nice if the League of Nations had left the region to set up their own thing without meddling from Britian and France splitting the region between them, yes it would have been nice if Cold War antics on both sides didn't screw things up over there, yes it would have been nice if George W. Bush didn't leave a gaping vacuum in Iraq, but those things are what happened.

We do have to be aware of the past and take it into account, but right now, we have to somehow stop this self feeding cycle of violence over there.

[Loud Whispers]

Contrary to popular belief, Syria is the result of the West not interfering and letting the Middle East sort our their own affairs.

Mix of both. Syria is the result of western intervention after the Western garrison in Iraq being forced to leave in Iraq allowed the conflict to spread into Syria. You don't destroy a regime without leaving a viable replacement. Iraq had none, Libya had none - and if we'd have succeeded in Syria, there'd be none.