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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[smjjames]

Or perhaps we could try prevent public opinion from indiscriminately hating on Muslims or Arabs, to ensure those 'normal' people aren't driven into extremism, while still acknowledging things like problem neighborhoods or hate-preaching Imams and whatnot exist and taking decisive action against such issues. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but they aren't all saints either, and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

Except if you lock up a hateful imam he will instantly become painted as a god loving saint and prisoner of conscience locked up and tortured those vile infidel dogs.
Soldiers were reporting muslims making martyrs out of failed attacks on outposts in Iraq by recording dying comrades with phones instead of actually giving htem any medical help.

Yes , handling them requires a bit more subtlety. If it were up to me what would be done is a campaign to get the followers of people like these hooked on drugs or at least alcohol; not openly or officially, just pushers would be stationed near where they preach. Other more subtle temptations are required too; they shoukd pay Honey Baked Ham to open up shop next door and make sure any nearby newsstands (if there are any left) carry plenty of pornography. Basically all the tempting that western religion claims Satan/Iblis does we have to step up and do.

The manufacture of scandals and spreading of vicious rumors against hate preaching Imams, provided that they're plausible.

Wouldn't that just make them be even more against the West if we actively push their followers into drugs and alcohol and pornography?

[Baffler]

Or perhaps we could try prevent public opinion from indiscriminately hating on Muslims or Arabs, to ensure those 'normal' people aren't driven into extremism, while still acknowledging things like problem neighborhoods or hate-preaching Imams and whatnot exist and taking decisive action against such issues. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but they aren't all saints either, and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

Except if you lock up a hateful imam he will instantly become painted as a god loving saint and prisoner of conscience locked up and tortured those vile infidel dogs.
Soldiers were reporting muslims making martyrs out of failed attacks on outposts in Iraq by recording dying comrades with phones instead of actually giving htem any medical help.

Yes , handling them requires a bit more subtlety. If it were up to me what would be done is a campaign to get the followers of people like these hooked on drugs or at least alcohol; not openly or officially, just pushers would be stationed near where they preach. Other more subtle temptations are required too; they shoukd pay Honey Baked Ham to open up shop next door and make sure any nearby newsstands (if there are any left) carry plenty of pornography. Basically all the tempting that western religion claims Satan/Iblis does we have to step up and do.

The manufacture of scandals and spreading of vicious rumors against hate preaching Imams, provided that they're plausible.

Wouldn't that just make them be even more against the West if we actively push their followers into drugs and alcohol and pornography?

And that's not the kind of attack we want a government to be making. If it works on angry Imams, what other sorts of agitator will it work against? Will they show restraint in employing the tactic against those other agitators? They're a threat to public order as well you know.

Don't hate on people for running toward authoritarian solutions in a crisis, then suggest a different authoritarian solution as an alternative.

[Bohandas]

Or perhaps we could try prevent public opinion from indiscriminately hating on Muslims or Arabs, to ensure those 'normal' people aren't driven into extremism, while still acknowledging things like problem neighborhoods or hate-preaching Imams and whatnot exist and taking decisive action against such issues. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but they aren't all saints either, and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

Except if you lock up a hateful imam he will instantly become painted as a god loving saint and prisoner of conscience locked up and tortured those vile infidel dogs.
Soldiers were reporting muslims making martyrs out of failed attacks on outposts in Iraq by recording dying comrades with phones instead of actually giving htem any medical help.

Yes , handling them requires a bit more subtlety. If it were up to me what would be done is a campaign to get the followers of people like these hooked on drugs or at least alcohol; not openly or officially, just pushers would be stationed near where they preach. Other more subtle temptations are required too; they shoukd pay Honey Baked Ham to open up shop next door and make sure any nearby newsstands (if there are any left) carry plenty of pornography. Basically all the tempting that western religion claims Satan/Iblis does we have to step up and do.

The manufacture of scandals and spreading of vicious rumors against hate preaching Imams, provided that they're plausible.

Wouldn't that just make them be even more against the West if we actively push their followers into drugs and alcohol and pornography?

And that's not the kind of attack we want a government to be making. If it works on angry Imams, what other sorts of agitator will it work against?

Mostly conservative ones. I don't think it particularly undermines anyone else's message.

Wouldn't that just make them be even more against the West if we actively push their followers into drugs and alcohol and pornography?

You left out ham.

[scrdest]

Or perhaps we could try prevent public opinion from indiscriminately hating on Muslims or Arabs, to ensure those 'normal' people aren't driven into extremism, while still acknowledging things like problem neighborhoods or hate-preaching Imams and whatnot exist and taking decisive action against such issues. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but they aren't all saints either, and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

Except if you lock up a hateful imam he will instantly become painted as a god loving saint and prisoner of conscience locked up and tortured those vile infidel dogs.
Soldiers were reporting muslims making martyrs out of failed attacks on outposts in Iraq by recording dying comrades with phones instead of actually giving htem any medical help.

Yes , handling them requires a bit more subtlety. If it were up to me what would be done is a campaign to get the followers of people like these hooked on drugs or at least alcohol; not openly or officially, just pushers would be stationed near where they preach. Other more subtle temptations are required too; they shoukd pay Honey Baked Ham to open up shop next door and make sure any nearby newsstands (if there are any left) carry plenty of pornography. Basically all the tempting that western religion claims Satan/Iblis does we have to step up and do.

The manufacture of scandals and spreading of vicious rumors against hate preaching Imams, provided that they're plausible.

Wouldn't that just make them be even more against the West if we actively push their followers into drugs and alcohol and pornography?

It's not even about the preachers if we did that.

Imagine, if you will, that you're an European Muslim, still a believer but not so much to prevent you from succumbing to the terrible might of Tasty Tasty Ham And Nekkid Chicks.

If you still strongly believe, not in the 'Sure, there's a (somewhat unspecific) God and we cool, plus the community is great' way - this way lies self-hatred, and people who feel guilty about their pleasures are easy to, well, guilt trip.

That, and said guy's kids may do something similar and decide to go fight their own, better Islam with without blackjack and hookers, because you just don't get it, dad.

[ggamer]

not gonna lie pulling out of Iraq and leaving billions of dollars of military hardware with the Iraqi security forces, probably not my favorite foreign policy decision made so far

ugh there were literally dozens of points where we could have stopped ISIL from gaining as much power as they have, but we've missed every opportunity every step of the way

obviously knowing how western democracy works we won't do anything until they've taken out all of our allies in the middle east and everyone there is good and pissed off that we watched Islamists run ramshod all over them and then got mad when they had the gall to try and escape this situation

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/14/456002589/isis-claims-responsibiilty-for-bloody-attack-on-paris

In its statement, ISIS says the attackers "targeted the capital of abominations and perversion, that carries the banner of the cross in Europe, Paris." It added that the attacking group had acted to "throw fear into the hearts of the Crusaders in their own land."

Translation: we are scared shitless after we got our assholes thrashed by the kurds in Sinjar so we're trying desperately to show people that we mean business

Inb4 the Iraqi government self destructs from retardation and the only thing left is Kurdistan

[Morrigi]

Another source for at least one of the terrorists being a "refugee", in Greek:
http://www.antenna.gr/news/-/article/428234/twitter-article
English translation of the important part: https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst/status/665558503528882176

[Loud Whispers]

Well damn, looks like those people who said that ISIS was smuggling militants with the refugees were right.......

When you wait for a tragedy to unfold before you act then you will always act too late.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US government did an about face and said no to bringing in Syrian refugees.

That won't happen, the USA is committed. The USA is also one of the few nations with logistics impressive enough to actually take in Syrian refugees as opposed to "Syrian refugees".

Spoiler: We've been saying it's been happening for so long (click to show/hide)

It's funny that you actually believe the propaganda when the logistics of it make no sense whatsoever.

Right, so I posted how:
*ISIS fought for the Turkish border
*Has been working in cooperation with human traffickers (earlier on I even posted how the human traffickers were toting serious artillery in Libya because of their connections)
*How ISIS fighters have already been caught in refugee camps
*How ISIS manuals have described how to exploit refugee status to move throughout Europe
*How thinktanks and ISIS operatives themselves have said they have sent ISIS through Europe by exploiting refugee status
*How Islamist militiants already did this and carried out attacks
*How most are returning not to strike yet, but to spread Islamism as teachers and instructors, not fighters
*How ISIS soldiers from Europe express their intent to return to Europe
And this to you is proof you are right

Every time people see it coming and no one ever acts until it is beyond their power to act.

Yes, if you don't punch them back, that's no guarantee that they won't keep punching. It is a risk. But continually exchanging punches is generally not a desirable outcome. If you choose to keep punching, there is some sense in punching hard enough that they are incapable of punching you again.
Is that something you're willing to do?

They've killed people in Sweden, Germany and Denmark who have done fuck all in the middle east. I think if someone's punching me in the face I wouldn't trust in the good will of someone attacking me, I'd punch them back. Trusting in the good will of your attacker is walking into slaughter.

Are you willing to commit genocide? Are you willing to kill not only every last one of them, but also every woman and child related to them? Are you willing to kill all the innocent bystanders in their home countries who will grow up watching your soldiers kill their brothers? Are you willing to go in and exterminate an entire people?
If not, then I suggest being wiling to take one or two more punches before they calm down.

What bizarre world do you live in where the two choices you have are genocide or suicide?

Yes , handling them requires a bit more subtlety. If it were up to me what would be done is a campaign to get the followers of people like these hooked on drugs or at least alcohol; not openly or officially, just pushers would be stationed near where they preach. Other more subtle temptations are required too; they shoukd pay Honey Baked Ham to open up shop next door and make sure any nearby newsstands (if there are any left) carry plenty of pornography. Basically all the tempting that western religion claims Satan/Iblis does we have to step up and do.
The manufacture of scandals and spreading of vicious rumors against hate preaching Imams, provided that they're plausible.

Is a movement that denounces Western degeneracy going to accept Western degeneracy? Or most importantly, publicly indulge in it? Still, it's an idea.

[Loud Whispers]

Oh and someone from France was arrested with a firearm in Gatwick airport, Britain.

[Graknorke]

Killing bystanders has been an inevitability of war since forever. Besides, living in ISIS controlled territory is giving them support, whether you're actually fighting or not. That's why bombing civilian infrastructure isn't inherently a war crime.

[Morrigi]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

[Wolfhunter107]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

You really want us to invade Syria? What good is getting stuck in another middle eastern quagmire gonna do?

[Antioch]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

You really want us to invade Syria? What good is getting stuck in another middle eastern quagmire gonna do?

This is another bad case of the "invading Iraq was bad, so all intervention in the middle east is bad" syndrome. The situation now is completely different from Iraq in 2003.

[ragnar119]

not gonna lie pulling out of Iraq and leaving billions of dollars of military hardware with the Iraqi security forces, probably not my favorite foreign policy decision made so far

ugh there were literally dozens of points where we could have stopped ISIL from gaining as much power as they have, but we've missed every opportunity every step of the way

obviously knowing how western democracy works we won't do anything until they've taken out all of our allies in the middle east and everyone there is good and pissed off that we watched Islamists run ramshod all over them and then got mad when they had the gall to try and escape this situation

The whole Iraq invasion was a huge mistake, including bombing and supporting rebels in Libya and Syria.

I was actually surprised US got away with it without any big notice.

[Baffler]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

[Wolfhunter107]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

You really want us to invade Syria? What good is getting stuck in another middle eastern quagmire gonna do?

This is another bad case of the "invading Iraq was bad, so all intervention in the middle east is bad" syndrome. The situation now is completely different from Iraq in 2003.

The situation in Syria is delicate enough as it is. Throwing in the added factor of a Western intervention is going to make it even worse.