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Author Topic: A Game of Clones: Game Over, Town-Cult Draw!  (Read 52425 times)

hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #450 on: December 30, 2015, 11:21:16 am »

Just as a quick point while I check through my riposte:

Refuge in audacity. "I was acting scummy to trap scum!" Not a great defense FoU. Also you can't really say it was a gambit if it didn't start out as one, but I won't continue arguing because it's such a ridiculous point.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #451 on: December 30, 2015, 11:30:59 am »

Also you can't really say it was a gambit if it didn't start out as one, but I won't continue arguing because it's such a ridiculous point.
It didn't start out as one, but it became one with my gigapost.

Refuge in audacity. "I was acting scummy to trap scum!" Not a great defense FoU.
That's not a refuge in audacity. That's a strategy. And there's a difference between acting scummy and acting insane.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

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hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #452 on: December 30, 2015, 11:34:53 am »

There is a difference, yes.

Funny how it comes out when you have the majority of the votes on you, though.

I would have thought that, especially given that you postulate that Saber is the CL and I'm his convert, it would come out when the two of us voted you, but hey, better late than never, right?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #453 on: December 30, 2015, 11:38:41 am »

It's not an OMGUS if there's logic behind it.
Now please, riposte.
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hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #454 on: December 30, 2015, 11:40:38 am »

Walls of JerichoText

The issue remains that your process of elimination is bloody flawed. Do try better.
Flabort does not have any counterclaims to being the Vig, but could be the Clone Lord claiming his minion's former role(he converted the real killer or such). For that matter, he could be claiming his minion's exact role, and that could be why we haven't lost yet- because Flabort's conversion method failed N1.
Oh no! Your magical fairy godmother warped reality to make this scenario and/or its variants impossible!

You accuse me of tunneling later, but I guess it can be addressed at this part, seeing as how I came up with his scenario in the first place. If I'm tunneling on you, why am I coming up with potential scenarios for everyone to consider that make it harder for me to lynch you?

Let's move on.
I'm going to quote this AGAIN, for good measure.
I am also a VT. I had assumed everyone else was, but OSG claimed otherwise... But I've already said I think he was the best conversion target, so it probably doesn't matter what he claims...
Ahem. The possibility of OSG being a convert certainly exists- because he was somewhat inactive D2 and D1 the guy he replaced also wasn't active. If you started the game as town... first of all, you could be lying, and are in fact the Clone Lord, with OSG just trying to protect you. Or you could possibly be town, but OSG being cult claiming truthfully that he inspected you earlier to learn your alignment. Oh, and note the above quote, in which you state that it doesn't matter what OSG claims, and that you think he's the best conversion target. In other words, using OSG's claim to remove yourself from the chart is completely invalid. COMPLETELY. AND. UTTERLY. INVALID. All it takes is the possibility of one lie and that entire thought process collapses.
If you didn't have that fairy godmother warping reality for you again, perhaps I could have stopped here.
But no, I need to debunk every bit of it.

This is arguably the biggest straw-clutch in the entire thing (outside of the gambit-that-wasn't-a-gambit claim) because you say I'm not allowed to use OSG's claim to support what I said because I mentioned earlier I think he's the likeliest convert.

You say that I can't remove myself from being CL using OSG's claim so... how's about mine? I claimed VT, or maybe that I'm not going to leave myself in there because I know I'm not the CL? Even if I was the CL... do I even need to finish the sentence? Yes, I will, because my mind is blown by how defensive you're being.

Even if I was the CL, I'm not going to say "hey guys, I think I might be the CL!"

Now I expect you to say "oh hector now you're moving the goal-posts by changing how you're supporting one aspect of your argument by using a completely different player's assertions!"

So let's move on.
1. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS AFTER BEING SO BLOODY TOWNIE? WHY WOULD YOU BE SO IRRATIONAL? WHY MUST YOU CAUSE SUCH IRRITATION TO MY BRAIN!?
Ahem, now that AGH is done... "I appreciate that my gut-feeling is not going to clear him in anyone else's eyes". No, your "feeling" that TigerDude is noob town is useless. USELESS! Good for beginning an investigation, but not for tapping off an argument. Critical argument failure. "but I believe that Saber's actions during D1 and D2 were n00b town, so he at least started the game out as town, and is thus not CL". Critical. Argument. Failure. No, if you want to prove that TigerDude is noob town, give evidence in the form of posts, counterposts, and other RELEVANT stuffs.

Blast it. You used your fairy godmother to blast away that objection.

2. First of all, I think I understand what tunneling is now. As compared to my hammering, that is. It simply is focusing on one target and not considering alternate possibilities. Above this sentence, you see a complete debunker of the chain of elimination from hector. Please read all of it. Twice.

These bits are being grouped together because (in part 1.) you're asking me to look for things to support my argument that Saber is n00b town (and I will, after I'm done with this) while (in part 2.) accusing me of tunneling, and giving a definition of tunneling, without actually pointing out the bits where I've tunneled.

So I challenge you, sunshine, to go out and prove to the world that I'm tunneling you, using the definition you just gave.

I will, however, start you off with a post in which I considered an alternate scenario: this post.

"Oh" I hear you say, "this is the post in which you build a case against me! How does this contain alternate scenarios when you urge people to vote me?" Well, FoU, I'm glad you asked.

I want everyone to know that your change in behaviour from being sure and confident about fillipk and Saber being scum Days 1 and 2 could be because you were converted, and the CL just needs someone who isn't the CL to be lynched to win (assuming, as I mentioned a while back, 2 members just now and a successful conversion during the night-phase) so you're being directed to look scummy by your new boss.

I then reject that theory using your behaviour from the end of D2, when you acknowledge the MYLO situation, say we can still force a no-lynch, but lynch someone anyway because you know it's not a MYLO situation, because you're the CL.

And one more thing, Hector:

!!IT WAS ALL AN ELABORATE GAMBIT!!. Given, I didn't know it was until now, but I do now. All the crazy- all a TRAP. And you fell for it. Read above if you don't believe me.

You will explain this part, because you made a massive post and emphasised this bit right in the middle, so anyone skimming is only going to notice that bit and assume that's what you were doing, even though right after it (the bit I emphasised) you admit that it wasn't.

I am well aware this could be a trap, which is what I said in my case against you, linked and explained above, just not your trap.

And some more debunkers, for good measure.

FoU has acknowledged he was jailed N1, and here we find ourselves on D3, with fewer than 3 cult. No cult has been killed so far, and both night phases have ended early, meaning everyone with a night action PM'd one to DA. We can thus conclude that the reason we have fewer than 3 cult at this point is because the CL was blocked N1, and was unable to convert someone.

If we carry this a little further, FoU also said he acted upon flabort N2, and flabort has claimed 1-shot immunity to conversion, so we could conceivably win the game by lynching FoU.

Please, do it, kill the scummy bastard with immediacy!
And now we've progressed to insults. I can tolerate that, but I can't tolerate irrationality.
Yes, I believe I was jailed N1(that's definitely what the flavor suggests, and also what I was told). I admitted as such earlier.

Under no circumstances does that alone make me definitively the Clone Lord.

Let's go through a significant list of possibilities!
One. The Clone Lord tried to convert me N1(and I'm flattered if you did). I was frozen in a block of ice. Think it over.
Two. N1, the Clone Lord targeted TDS, who was killed before conversion as a result of action priority orders.
Three. N1, the Clone Lord targeted the vigilante. Flabort or otherwise. 1-shot conversion immunity has been stated, and for balance reasons, makes sense.
If the Clone Lord managed to convert a target N1, then here's some more reasons we haven't lost.
Four. N2, the Clone Lord targeted Megggas. Who was shot and killed.
Five. N2, the Clone Lord targeted the vigilante. Since I know Flabort wasn't converted N2... oh wow I just realized, assuming flabort has a 1-shot resistance to conversion, he basically couldn't have been converted, since he wasn't converted N2 and if he was gotten night one it would have failed. Assuming his resistance.
Six. One of the so-called "VTs" actually has some sort of shenanigansly power role which thwarted the conversion(could have happened on N1 or N2, by the way).

And only one of these needs to be true in order to thwart your track of conversation.

Now who's being irrational? I didn't progress to insults, it was the full-stop/period to end the sentence that was my case against you, urging people to lynch the scum trying to kill us! If I called you a clown, which I really want to do :P that would be an insult.

I've highlighted one part of the above quote and separated it for easier identification because my case was not built upon you being jailed, you being jailed was supporting evidence, and it wasn't the part that I stood by when I suggested that your behaviour could be explained through an alternate scenario.

Equally so, it's not the only thing I'm using as evidence against you. What of the fakeclaim and MYLO stuff?

Are you seriously trying to say that because you've postulated about things that weaken one part of my argument that the rest of it has thusly been disproven?

In other news...
Now for the offensive(somewhat smaller, flabort has made good arguments that I can refer you to).
There is no law of physics that forces OSG to be scum. He could have been converted, and would potentially be a desirable target N2 for his unknownness, but any given Clone Lord could have known that, and chosen not to convert him because of it. I know, WIFOM, but it suffices to say in this case that it is possible for OSG to be town. Now, it's still possible for flabort to be the CL claiming his convert's role, but I think I can purpose a theory.

Thank you, flabort.
This may be a restatement of an earlier theory, but now it's backed a bit more firmly.

SaberToothTiger is the CL and hector13 is the convert.
Reason one. The chainsawing. SaberTooth protects hector and vice versa. When I start on Saber, you pull out a minigun and start shooting me with it. I go insane(not really), you keep going, then I spring the trap. You were willing to go through with all this irrationality in order to get me lynched. Considering how good you were being for hunting D2, not being irrational and whatnot...

What do you mean when you "start" on Saber? You've been on Saber since D1, sunshine. Excuse me for thinking your tunnel vision is a bad thing.

Reason two. The irrationality, the tunneling on me, really. Willing to go so far out of rationality in order to get me offed.

Addressed later.

Reason the third. It just... see, SaberTooth was acting passive, scummy, and tried to get out of attention... if anyone was the Clone Lord, simply based on behavior alone, it would be him. N00b clone lord, not noob town. And now you completely switch tracks to defending him.

Alright, just for fun, I'll also give you the same task I gave flabort. When did I start defending Saber? And what did my defense constitute?

If you need anything more, speak with flabort, I think he's better at offense than I am.

Nice piggy-back. Can't find evidence yourself? Rely on someone else's arguments! I mean you already used two of mine to prove I'm talking rubbish, let's go whole hog and use someone else's to support your vote too!

In conclusion, SaberToothTiger, it was a good game. And I succeeded at setting off my trap.

Yehp, great trap. I also like how 80% of that post is you panicking trying to defend yourself:

"Hector's mad! He's using posts he rejected earlier!"

"My scummy behaviour was all a gambit!"

"See! I've postulated to ruin one bit of his argument against me, the rest of it must be equally bad!"

The final 20% being "I can't find arguments to use against my target myself, so I'll piggy-back on someone else's!"

PPE: crush away, dude. There are bits that we've kind of addressed (specifically the gambit) while I was typing it up, but I left it in because lazy.

PPE2: I didn't say it was an OMGUS, you clown :P

If it was a trap, there would be a point you would have it revealed, and it wasn't revealed then, it was revealed after I built a solid case against you that someone else agreed with to bring the votes against you to three out of five.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #455 on: December 30, 2015, 11:49:10 am »

Boy, it's almost as though you missed the whole point of my attack/defense.
~~~
Oh wait. You did. My point with my gigapost was to show that me being the Clone Lord was not the only possibility, and to answer your horrid trip-up which you just conveniently forgot about.
~~~
"See! I've postulated to ruin one bit of his argument against me, the rest of it must be equally bad!"
So it is ruined?
Good sir, you're focusing on the bad bits of my defense/attack. Which irritates me because it served its purpose- I AM NOT THE ONLY POSSIBILITY FOR BEING THE CLONE LORD, AS YOU TRIED TO PROVE EARLIER!

I'm not responding to your questions/queries attacks until you actually respond to mine. What you did was just another attack, using my own post's stuff against me. You didn't actually counter any of the good bits.

So, good sir, why am I the only possibility for scum, as you have stated earlier?
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

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hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #456 on: December 30, 2015, 12:07:22 pm »

Because, based on the evidence I have available to me, I can eliminate everyone else to my satisfaction. As I said, the PoE post was from my perspective. Not your's, not OSG's, not flabort's, not Saber's, mine.

I don't care if you don't like it, partly because I think you're the CL, but also because you have a different perspective from me. I laid things out as such so y'all could understand why I was building a case on you.

The things you said that make my process of elimination fallacious (flabort converting the vig, OSG being the likely convert) are all things that I brought up earlier, and rejected as less likely than you being CL, so for you to say that I'm not considering other possibilities is false.

It is, in fact, an outright lie, because you voted flabort when I brought that part up about him, going so far as to call me a genius!

You know I've been considering other possibilities, you just don't like that I've concluded you're the CL.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

flabort

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #457 on: January 01, 2016, 12:41:05 am »

OK, here's PoE, full version.

Spoiler: First, I know I'm not (click to show/hide)
For obvious reasons, first I eliminate myself.
As I know I'm not a clone or the clone lord.

Second, we'll wipe out anything that would require absurd amounts of bussing, while marking anything that's bussing without being absurd for later. Let's make believable bussing red, and also mark buddying/protecting in green.


Now, OSG's claimed ability would rule out a Hector-OSG situation if it hadn't already, but doesn't rule out the OSG-Hector situation.
In fact, you're right. I can't exactly rule out everything. So let's just sort everything that's left.

Now, for Flabort to fight the battle of Jericho Text.

Walls of JerichoText

The issue remains that your process of elimination is bloody flawed. Do try better.
Flabort does not have any counterclaims to being the Vig, but could be the Clone Lord claiming his minion's former role(he converted the real killer or such). For that matter, he could be claiming his minion's exact role, and that could be why we haven't lost yet- because Flabort's conversion method failed N1.
Oh no! Your magical fairy godmother warped reality to make this scenario and/or its variants impossible!

You accuse me of tunneling later, but I guess it can be addressed at this part, seeing as how I came up with his scenario in the first place. If I'm tunneling on you, why am I coming up with potential scenarios for everyone to consider that make it harder for me to lynch you?
Say what? Of course you're tunneling him right now. By coming up with those scenarios, you're asking everyone else "Don't you think I should lynch this guy, here's some evidence that could be used to stop me, oh too late I already used it, so don't you feel the same way I do and he should be lynched?", or to put it another way, "Despite this hypothetical situation, I think he should be lynched. So I have sufficient evidence that he should be put away, so why aren't you helping me vote him?".

If you weren't tunneling him, you'd be proposing cases against other players instead of proposing reasons not to lynch that player that you're targeting.

Let's move on.
I'm going to quote this AGAIN, for good measure.
I am also a VT. I had assumed everyone else was, but OSG claimed otherwise... But I've already said I think he was the best conversion target, so it probably doesn't matter what he claims...
Ahem. The possibility of OSG being a convert certainly exists- because he was somewhat inactive D2 and D1 the guy he replaced also wasn't active. If you started the game as town... first of all, you could be lying, and are in fact the Clone Lord, with OSG just trying to protect you. Or you could possibly be town, but OSG being cult claiming truthfully that he inspected you earlier to learn your alignment. Oh, and note the above quote, in which you state that it doesn't matter what OSG claims, and that you think he's the best conversion target. In other words, using OSG's claim to remove yourself from the chart is completely invalid. COMPLETELY. AND. UTTERLY. INVALID. All it takes is the possibility of one lie and that entire thought process collapses.
If you didn't have that fairy godmother warping reality for you again, perhaps I could have stopped here.
But no, I need to debunk every bit of it.

This is arguably the biggest straw-clutch in the entire thing (outside of the gambit-that-wasn't-a-gambit claim) because you say I'm not allowed to use OSG's claim to support what I said because I mentioned earlier I think he's the likeliest convert.

You say that I can't remove myself from being CL using OSG's claim so... how's about mine? I claimed VT, or maybe that I'm not going to leave myself in there because I know I'm not the CL? Even if I was the CL... do I even need to finish the sentence? Yes, I will, because my mind is blown by how defensive you're being.

Even if I was the CL, I'm not going to say "hey guys, I think I might be the CL!"

Now I expect you to say "oh hector now you're moving the goal-posts by changing how you're supporting one aspect of your argument by using a completely different player's assertions!"
Well, if I'm not allowed to use OSG's claim to support my reads, why should you be allowed to? But seriously, nothing else wrong with this quote.

So let's move on.
1. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS AFTER BEING SO BLOODY TOWNIE? WHY WOULD YOU BE SO IRRATIONAL? WHY MUST YOU CAUSE SUCH IRRITATION TO MY BRAIN!?
Ahem, now that AGH is done... "I appreciate that my gut-feeling is not going to clear him in anyone else's eyes". No, your "feeling" that TigerDude is noob town is useless. USELESS! Good for beginning an investigation, but not for tapping off an argument. Critical argument failure. "but I believe that Saber's actions during D1 and D2 were n00b town, so he at least started the game out as town, and is thus not CL". Critical. Argument. Failure. No, if you want to prove that TigerDude is noob town, give evidence in the form of posts, counterposts, and other RELEVANT stuffs.

Blast it. You used your fairy godmother to blast away that objection.

2. First of all, I think I understand what tunneling is now. As compared to my hammering, that is. It simply is focusing on one target and not considering alternate possibilities. Above this sentence, you see a complete debunker of the chain of elimination from hector. Please read all of it. Twice.

These bits are being grouped together because (in part 1.) you're asking me to look for things to support my argument that Saber is n00b town (and I will, after I'm done with this) while (in part 2.) accusing me of tunneling, and giving a definition of tunneling, without actually pointing out the bits where I've tunneled.

So I challenge you, sunshine, to go out and prove to the world that I'm tunneling you, using the definition you just gave.

I will, however, start you off with a post in which I considered an alternate scenario: this post.

"Oh" I hear you say, "this is the post in which you build a case against me! How does this contain alternate scenarios when you urge people to vote me?" Well, FoU, I'm glad you asked.

I want everyone to know that your change in behaviour from being sure and confident about fillipk and Saber being scum Days 1 and 2 could be because you were converted, and the CL just needs someone who isn't the CL to be lynched to win (assuming, as I mentioned a while back, 2 members just now and a successful conversion during the night-phase) so you're being directed to look scummy by your new boss.

I then reject that theory using your behaviour from the end of D2, when you acknowledge the MYLO situation, say we can still force a no-lynch, but lynch someone anyway because you know it's not a MYLO situation, because you're the CL.
OK. Here's my proof to the world.

Ignoring your case against Fallacy right now, are you considering the possibilities that OSG or Saber could be scum? Do you have a case against either of them?
Especially Saber, but OSG too. I've only seen you saying Saber is n00b town; I haven't seen you voting OSG except randomly for no reason at the start of the day. And you're not pursuing a case against me, either, but I don't mind that.

And how is the rest of this quote not tunneling against Fallacy? I don't see you considering any alternate targets; You don't even seem to answer the question you put into Fallacy's mouth. Both your scenarios are targeting FoU, therefor they are not alternate scenarios, therefor you are still tunneling.

Quote
The rest of the post, which I have not quoted
So... I don't really need to comment on whether or not Fallacy's "Trap" was indeed a trap or whether or not it was effective. You're basically just blathering about how it can't be his trap, which frankly is not his point or even helpful.

Hector13, I'm still convinced you've been converted. And here's my proof:

A post from day 2: You have cases against everyone, you're considering the possibility that Saber could be n00b CL, rather than n00b town (but are still leaning town), and FoU "feels" town to you.

Day 3: Suddenly, Saber is cannot possibly be the Clone Lord, and of course, except for right off the bat where you vote OSG for no reason, and a post where you hypothesis that I could be CL claiming for my converted slave, you've been pursuing FoU this entire day.

Therefor, you have been converted night 2. Probably by Saber, but possibly by OSG.
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The Cyan Menace

Went away for a while, came back, went away for a while, and back for now.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #458 on: January 01, 2016, 02:06:49 am »

And that's how you do an attack. And that's how I'd like to be able to do an attack.
~~~
So assuming it's SaberTooth or OSG who is the Clone Lord, which one?
~~~
And hector- you're probably going to say something about going with the pressure, or passiveness, or not making my own arguments- but I'm fine with that. I see good arguments in flabort's text and I consider them to be likely possibilities. Therefore, I support him. Do you have a problem with good logic?
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hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #459 on: January 01, 2016, 11:51:59 am »

Well Saber, CW and Megas, that's a much better example of a chainsaw defense than the one that was offered earlier, but let's move on.



Likely will only be able to do cases against others right now, just so FoU can't go "you've had two days to come up with this shit!"

Saber: has lurked all the way through the game, hasn't put pressure on anyone other than minor bits on fillipk earlier. Arguably chainsawed/buddied me by calling out FoU's damning of me not claiming. Has done literally nothing of substance since D1.

OSG: much the same as Saber, though much more active D3. Puts a bit of pressure on me with a vote early D3, though this seems to be because he misconstrues my argument regarding the MYLO situation on D2, and scum reads my not claiming. Doesn't seem to have read much of D1 and D2 (has OSG done any more reading?) and gives some... pretty crap reasoning for investigating Megas and myself. Would expect better from an experienced player.

Also appeared to ignore the possibility that FoU was the jailed target, rather than the jailed Clone Lord. Would expect better from an experienced player, especially considering the jailor shenanigans in the most recent BM.

Hasn't really put much pressure on anyone. Votes for my, fallacy and Saber over the course of the day, but doesn't back it up with questioning.

Could argue that the post in which he says that he's not voting me is buddying and/or a red herring, but nobody has really said anything about it.

This is my biggest worry: OSG is the CL and FoU is the convert who has been tasked with getting lynched today, as that will likely equal a win for the CL. Unfortunately, I can't prove it, which is why I haven't been pushing it.

flabort: Another worry I have, especially considering his apparent hatred of VTs. Could be cult (either CL having converted the vig, or a converted vig) but the lack of a counter-claim makes it less likely he's the CL and claim of a 1-shot immunity does make it less likely he's a convert, and harder to prove the other way in both instances.

Of course, flabort could be lying about the immunity, as no party in the game can prove it one way or the other... unless the CL wants to reveal and try to convert him N3..?

Apparent hatred of VTs: NK'd TDS and Megas, two VTs, and is pursuing the remaining to claimants as the scum team. I imagine that even if we do hit the CL today, I'll be murdered overnight given that I've piqued his interest.

Interesting point about the tunneling: has voted Saber at every day end so far, but hasn't tried to kill him...

Very lurky D3, though this was to do with outside-mafia stuff.

Also worried that he's the CL having converted FoU, but this seems less likely than the above scenario... but FoU's change in behaviour from being quite confident in his pursuit of fillipk and Saber Days 1 and 2 to the neurotic mess he is today could be as a result from a more experienced hand saying "we just need to have a non-CL lynch today, go for it", which would mean either OSG or flabort, and I suspect it in that order.



One of the big issues I have with lurkiness being a scumtell is that everyone does it to some extent. This is part of the reason why I don't feel like voting for Saber:

TDS lurked D1. Town.

Megas lurked latter half of D2. Town.

OSG lurked D2. Claims town.

flabort lurked some of D3 (outside-mafia influence, fine, but no activity nonetheless). Claims town.

If anyone can bring something else to the table regarding Saber, I'll happily consider it. Until then, no.



I'll quickly go through flabort's PoE conclusions (my comments bolded) before I have to leave, do the rest later:

Clone Lord: Convert
Saber Hector: fair enough, can't fault it. I have been saying I consider him n00b town a lot, but... it's because I do. Not sure how you expect my gut-feeling to be the best way (and my best play? Pfft, I'm massively offended :P) I'd try to hide the fact he's CL, especially after calling out fillipk for suspecting FoU as a gut-feeling without evidence.

OSG Hector: another good one, however it would be more likely to be a Hector/OSG thing, as his claim might not get believed and he'd be the one getting lynched. If he were CL, that's not so good since it puts me in the immediate spotlight for the next day. I'll reject this just because I've been saying the CL just has to do is avoid getting lynched; I wouldn't be saying that if OSG and I were the scum team and we were performing a gambit of some description.

Hector Saber: Getting into less likely territory. I've been drawing heavy flak for saying I feel that Saber is n00b town. This would also mean that OSG is lying, so... that didn't seem to factor in to this one.

Saber FoU Might be happening, actually. Saber is a self-confessed n00b, FoU has been attacking him all game long. Makes sense to convert your biggest detractor, right?

Saber OSG Don't think I have anything to say on this one. From the perspective of a n00b CL, I'm not sure a lurky spot is the best conversion target... could be wrong though.

FoU OSG I agree, this seems less likely, especially since OSG basically dropped the hammer on FoU by voting him. Might be doing it for distancing, but it's a risky play, to be sure.

OSG Saber Nope. OSG is too experienced to convert the easiest lynch.

OSG FoU This shouldn't be the penultimate one you're considering, man. This is my second-most likely scum-team, and the one I'm most worried about.

FoU Saber Also nope. Unless FoU had a massive brain fart, he's not going to convert the only target he's had for the entire game that's left alive.

FoU: You're not going with pressure, you're clutching to anything that suggests that you're not the CL. Any port in a storm, as they say.

The fact you're not considering flabort as the CL there, though... what makes you so sure he's not it? Because he's attacking me, as well as pushing your target as the CL?

I think we can all agree that Saber is the easy lynch here... flabort and FoU scum-team in some capacity, OSG?
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #460 on: January 01, 2016, 12:08:17 pm »

... I know I'm not the Clone Lord, and I know I'm not a convert. Of course I'm going to prefer to support game theories where I'm not cult.
~~~
Saber: Has done literally nothing of substance since D1.
... perhaps, consider the possibility he's not noob town, he's noob CL?
But of course, you're not going to do that, because you're his minion(likely so, anyway).
~~~
And flabort very well could be the CL(I don't have any proof that he's not the CL, just that he's not a convert(assuming he has that 1-shot immunity thing(proof: He wasn't converted N2, which I know about thanks to my trap, and if he was hit by a conversion N1, it wouldn't have worked))). But I think it's less likely than SaberTooth, after all, at least flabort is scum hunting, analyzing, and has been doing so since D1, albeit somewhat more passively than would be preferable. But he's certainly upped his game now.
~~~
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #461 on: January 01, 2016, 12:14:42 pm »

I suppose I'll do what Flabort did:

I'll also get rid of the same ones he did with regards to absurd bussing so there can be continuity.

For me, that leaves these:
This is my oppinion, and I think it is most likely that FoU is the clone lord.
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hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #462 on: January 01, 2016, 12:21:55 pm »

... perhaps, consider the possibility he's not noob town, he's noob CL?
But of course, you're not going to do that, because you're his minion(likely so, anyway).

Could also be I don't put much stock in activity as a reliable scum-read, too.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

hector13

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #463 on: January 01, 2016, 12:42:15 pm »

... it could also be a flabort/OSG team. Hmm... Have they actually pressured each other at all?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Clones, Day 3; Bloody Rooms
« Reply #464 on: January 01, 2016, 12:43:59 pm »

... not really? I'd recommend that you go back and check, but I've never seen them do so...
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

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