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[BrigadeGeneral]

Hello.

I need advice. Perhaps, here at forums, there are people who can give me one.

I have made a strategy game, which - I Believe - if would be done on PC, it would definitely change this genre in single player theme and for one, multiplayer.

Now, I am not a programmer - to test all features I build up this game on board, with exact functions as it would be PC, which took me 8 months to accomplish, and another 8 to test with friends.

And there is a problem: after talks with studio, which could actually transfer this game and make it real product, I ran out of cash, because whole investition would costs around 70,000 USD, and such money I don’t have.

More to speak: I send e-mails to Venture Capital companies, and actually these companies are interested, but they want me to collect money first to start this product. Now, the question: Having only Concept graphics and GDD along with playable board game is enough to even think of Crowdfunding? 70k USD is BIG goal.

I am watching since few years CF campaigns, some I backed, and I feel like I have something extraordinary at plate, but I am afraid this whole idea will be wasted: I can not show any in-game gameplay or even demonstrate what this game has to offer, and from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived (you know, something like UFO, but in game-scale).

Final Question: What you would do, in order to obtain funding for unique project, without ability to create gameplay or demo version*

* - because creating playable demo would costs 3/4 of total game costs, and I still don’t have such money.

Thanks from any advice or help!


EDIT: I should mention, that whole project was developed since 2000, and took me 13 years from start to finish it in shape it is now.

[cerapa]

I'm having difficulty understanding parts of your post, so I may misunderstand some things.

Having only Concept graphics and GDD along with playable board game is enough to even think of Crowdfunding? 70k USD is BIG goal.

Plenty of projects have gotten funded because of good looking art and a decent pitch. I'm really not an expert though, like at all. Having a board game version ready might make people think that you will actually deliver something though, so that might help you out.

and from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived (you know, something like UFO, but in game-scale).

This is a bad sign. Especially when combined with the fact that you say you believe your game will change the genre. Are you sure you aren't just in love with your ideas, and the game is actually fun to play?


And as far as demonstrations go, what does the board version look like?

[LordBucket]

What you would do, in order to obtain funding for unique project, without ability to create gameplay or demo version

Make a pitch video and take it to kickstarter. People fund game projects all the time.

Also, I suggest having somebody who isn't you write the script and perform in the video. Your English is bad. My first impression was that you're a scammer, and from your post history I'm not completely certain that you're not a bot.

(my country can not participate in Kickstarter)

Ok. How about indiegogo?

from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived

Well, ok. But if you want people to give you money for your idea, you have to convince them that it's worth doing so. That will be true at every step of the process: funding, selling it as a product, etc.

[BrigadeGeneral]

I am not a scammer. I can speak english perfectly, yet writings give me a BIG trouble. Sorry, it's not my native language and I am self learner.

Actually, the board game itself looks like this:

Outside opinions are like... "this is amazing", so when it comes to showing this board game, I am not shamed of anything.

Thanks, Lord and cerpa for replies! I will really think about creating good quality video and - if it will receive positive feedback - use it as a kickstarter promo.

[Graknorke]

If you already have it as a functioning board game, why not try selling it as a board game? It's not as though there's no market for them.

[Wysthric]

If you already have it as a functioning board game, why not try selling it as a board game? It's not as though there's no market for them.

Yeah honestly I'd start it up as a boardgame venture first because that is what you've got. Sure it's not going to rake in as much as a PC game but if you've got the rights to the franchise you can always do that later.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I'm going to second that recommendation. It looks kinda interesting; can you tell us more about it?

[BrigadeGeneral]

As board game, this whole Idea is BAD. I mean, I have it - it's great to play with friends, but there are few obstacles, if this would be final product: 1) space - game requires BIG room, because there are two big maps (only Europe is playable at this moment) and there are boards to maintain empire, which need a desk to hold it. 2) It requires at least two players (figures... ), and takes a lot of time. I really don't think there would be demand on such board game. 3) costs... even If I would make it smaller in size, there is already over 3000 elements for 8 players (8 empires), and costs would be just huge afaik.


About this game. Well..., there are few innovations comparing to other in its genre: First of all, players can rule entire world, because there are 27 countries to play. Also, in 1 game can participate at max 560 players, and they have full campaign: real time battles with armies up to 300000 people, general's carrer, each player has big influence in empire growth. Most country has it's unique units. Also, for multiplayer mode, I have created 4 different types of games for short battles, where 20 players can fight at one time. And this game will have very unique singleplayer mode where player can either fight all battles himself, or use artifical generals and order them various things, like cooperative attacks, which may lead to bigest battles ever created in PC games.

I would really start a Kickstarter campaign, but firstly I need to let people know about this project and then try to arrange some funding to start works on this.

Thanks for replies and help!

This how this game looks unfolded:



As you see, takes 1 room to hold it.

[strawberry-wine]

That is really an incredible project you've made. Your friends who get to play it are very lucky.

Here's my opinion on your reasons about why this could not be a board game .

First, it does seem to me that you could build this game on a much smaller scale (though it is hard to tell scale from these photos). It might give the game a different scale than you're used to, but the increase in portability would be worth it. It is worth exploring anyway, because if you have a portable prototype to show it will help with pitching both to board game and video game companies.

Second, there is actually a substantial market for board games that require 2+ players and several hours to play. So that is no obstacle for realizing this as a board game.

Third, there do seem to be a lot of components, and that would definitely be a sticking point. However, it's also a sticking point for realizing it as a video game. The more unique components, the more complicated the programming task becomes and the more art that needs to be made, and the higher the price for making the game.

Your most urgent task if you want to bring this game to market, whether you go with board or video game, will be to optimize the game such that you have less components. Or at least, make it so that you have a 'lite' version of the game with the least amount of components needed to make it playable, fun, and affordable to make. If you DO get more money for it, you can add in the rest of the components.

I will make an additional point on price. 70,000 USD seems way too cheap to be making a video game of this size. I don't know what companies you've communicated with, but an online multiplayer game this complex would probably cost at very bare minimum 500,000 USD for a company to make (and even then I would think the quality would suffer). Maybe I'm mistaken and the 70,000 is not meant for the whole game?

At any rate, board games have an advantage here, which is that they are cheaper to crowdfund successfully. You have to do a lot of research and a lot of networking to make it happen, but that's the same as with video games.

My recommendation would be, reduce the game as much as you can to its core essence, both components and rules-wise. Playtest rigorously with your friends and local gaming groups. Make a print-and-play version and get feedback from folks on the internet. Attend some board game conferences and pitch it to publishers.

[BrigadeGeneral]

Game has low complexity - ammount of used figurines in board game is because each country need to have at least 80 units, which creates demand for over 800 pawns, then for over 1200 unit shields... thats why board game is so complicated Basicly, on PC game, there are 22 graphics to be made (some you can see already on my website, along with concept graphics - I am still learning, doing small steps each time). 70k USD is ammount needed to actually make game playable and almost ready - w/o marketing.

On the other side, I didn't realized there is big scene for board games like this.  After all, it is playable, great game, but as PC product... it would be much, much better.

[Reelya]

If you make it a PC game, I think you'd need to think about what elements make this different to e.g. Paradox games (Europa Universalis IV, Hearts of Iron III, etc) and games in the Total War series. Those will be your big competitors, along with things like the Crusader Kings series, but I haven't really played that. So you need to research what the big selling points for those series are, then make sure you focus on some aspect that's not common to all of them.

Europa Universalis IV for example can handle multiplayer up to 32 players, but this is only viable on a LAN. And of course, getting 32 people together who own Europa Universalis IV in the first place is only possible because it's a popular and well-known series. Over the internet, however the practical limit for Europa Universalis IV is about 12 players, due to lag. True MMOs can be much bigger, but only due to many powerful dedicated servers running full time. So that's probably not a viable thing for your game. Realistic limits for an independent realtime wargame based on local servers would be 8-12 players probably. Which is not all that different from the practical limits for a comparable boardgame. So if you optimize your boardgame version for a maximum of 8 players, that will translate to a realistic maximum for online play too.

If you have, as you say, up to 560 players working together in countries, then this is starting to sound more like an MMO than it is a regular PC game. You'd need dedicated servers and you'd need to work out persistent worlds. Getting large numbers of people together for a casual realtime gaming session doesn't sound like something that will work. So, it's great to imagine 500+ players playing a PC-based wargame, but you need to iron out significant connection issues, and conceptualize what a "game session" would actually be like, what happens if someone's connection drops out, etc etc.

[Reelya]

BTW, for the boardgame idea, work on speeding up turns as much as possible. Wherever there's a calculation that needs to be made, make cards with the values pre-calculated, and tables for anything you need to know. Each player would get the same set of cards.

Also, wherever possible, replace components with playing cards. Printing custom stacks of cards is much cheaper than making diverse parts, and has lower labor costs for assembling the sets. Hell, you can really cheaply sell expansion packs with more rules or even new factions, if you make it so that as much of the rules are actually on the cards as possible.

[BrigadeGeneral]

Reelya Thanks for advice, but...

Board game is speeded up to the MAX. If 12 players can do a turn (w/o battles) within 30 seconds, I think I achived my goal. Even with battles on tactical maps (with big armies), turn will consume around 10 minutes at top. I should mention, that - instead of cards, I have made chart with 1044 calculations and friend of mine wrote program, which helps calulates single unit fight outcome. I asure you, I worked on this over 14 years, made 10 total versions of this game, took me 6 years to solve all internet issues, including player dropped, not being able to play, ect. Last 11 months I was doing around 250 various tests, with friends, to simulate internet enviroment and all possible behaviors that came to our minds.

As it goes to be a competitor to EUVI, TW series and CKII (this one I know less): for sure at graphic level I can not compete with TW, because game desing doesn't include 3d models of armies (man, particular): but vast possibilities and unique type of game play could (I hope!) make it up, along with some fine art graphics and great climax of the game, both in multi and single player (which is, again, unique to this genre afaik).

 game would look like... this:







As you see, there is not much 3d, except world map. Lag issue was great solved in FOnline, where 250 palyers can play at one time and single server can handle it - based on my experience with net code (which is very small, but still is) my game would use same bandwitch, or a bit lesser.

Game session, when it comes to the BIG internet game would look like this (I have few versions ready to be made, but it all depends on playerbase and actually what they would preffer): Session is 24/7, lasts around 10-16 days (for 1 game). Dedicated game is running all time, but real turns, where players can do all actions will take place within 2 hours window (minimum turn rate= 6, maximum, 20 turns). All time beyond this window is negotiations, charts viewing, wargaming with tactical battles (tests, lessons, competetition ect - there is plenty things to do, actually...). Time of window and all details can vary, like I said, depends on what players want and how it will suit them.

Minimum playerbase for BIG game is around 30-40 to make it smooth, but it could run with just 8 players w/o problem (again, I developed this system more then 6 years strictly as internet game, made 4 systems for that, which - as for this day - are unique in any way, and I am aware of that - but its hard to explain all without giving them "away", if you know what I mean).

I believe it could compete with most games at gaming level, but I might be wrong - I am an... old date, and what I like may be different for younger players. Such discussion can reweal me being wrong about my project, or can make me think I am going the right path.

[Thief^]

On the topic of doing it as a boardgame:

I printed a prototype boardgame through thegamecrafter.com. It's a print-on-demand service, so you can't go too custom and it's pricier than a proper printer per unit, but you don't pay setup costs so for single runs it's pretty good.

It can also help you work out what you actually need component-wise, for when you want to submit it to an actual printer (if you do).

[Reelya]

You see, that's the thing, I don't really see that there would be much call for a grand strategic game that takes two weeks and you need to log in every 2 hours to play a turn. This would not fit with most peoples schedules - unless they're unemployed. And even then you're impacting on the sleep arrangements of your players which doesn't create a good ongoing experience. Some strategy MMOs get away with this kind of scheduling, because there's the promise of permanent rewards in the game and the player has a previous time-investment keeping them there. But if such a game "resets" every two weeks then most people will use that as an excuse to stop playing if it was impacting their other activities or sleep arrangements.

You need to consider the life/work situation of your players. And that your players will re-assess their time commitment after each round ends. It's important to grow your core playerbase as you go, and anything too time consuming / time demanding that's not an actual MMO with permanence is going to discourage people from becoming regular players.