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[Detoxicated]

See at it this way, perhaps there is a constellations of stars that appear at sunset, which is the blind cave bear, and this is associated with the god of the sky, as the sun is part of the sky.

[Orgeston]

Windfish are okay (they even have real-life precedent in flying fish), but Firefish would not be. The elements of Air and Fire are not opposed, and Air and Weather are actually allied, so Phoenix & Thunderbird are both good. Capricorn is always depicted with a fish/mermaid tail. (If you want to stick an animal where it doesn't belong, tack on parts from animals that DO belong. Aztecs be all, "You want to put a Serpent in the sky? Better make it Feathered, dude.")

That's a very good point. Maybe there could be a modifier applied to certain animals, if necessary? So terrestrial animals could have feathers/wings added to them if they were by chance rolled to be/represent a wind/sky god? I think a flaming fish could be a fantastic god. Maybe if it had enough correlating spheres, like [FIRE][DANCE][FISH] (Yes, that's a sphere.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The GDS thing I said was pretty dumb, but XXXXYYYY had it together:

...why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves?

What a fantastic esoteric association. The comparison of dunes to waves is very poignant and mythological.

[endlessblaze]

and who knows, maybe the god of the sea rides a giant desert scorpion because his sibling, the god of the sands, gave it to him as a gift.
the possibilities are endless!

[XXXXYYYY]

Necropost.

Well, if we're necroing this, might as well go all in.

I just realized that I never replied to you.

For example, please try to rationalize how a blind cave bear somehow managed to beat out every single species of bird to become the animal associated with a sky god.

You could say that the birds aren't actually connected with the sky. When's the last time a bird has hatched young in the air? In fact, a case could be made that birds are creatures of earth, not sky. They do hatch from a rock-like egg, and are land-locked for a good portion of their lives, after all. Heck, some of them can't even fly.

A blind cave bear, a creature that can't see, and must instead rely on hearing and scent alone to survive and catch prey? They require the air, rather than just using it to get from point A to point B to escape from predator C. They need those elusive airborne properties to survive. They're completely helpless without them. At least a bird can run away in the proper direction if land-bound.

Think about it from the perspective of an unwary Dwarf. They are just futzing around, hiding from the wildlife, when all of a sudden, this giant monstrosity catches their scent without even looking in their direction, and all of a sudden, without needing to look at them at all, it's charging at them. Is it not possible that that dwarf might see its sudden detection of them as a decree given to them as a sky god of some form, and the bears are the god's symbol in the depths?

Or why a god of pregnancy would be represented as a skeletal male dwarf.

Inevitable boner comment. No, really. A bone-like male body-part gives rise to a pregnancy. It's just looking at it a strange way. Rather than saying "oh, look at that pregnant woman" its going "oh hey, he put his 'bone' in her and now she's pregnant" and drawing the conclusions that they may.

Heck, they could see pregnancy itself as a skeletal dwarf growing flesh until it becomes the baby. It's not really that far-fetched, considering some of the guesses we've had in the past as to how it all worked (sperm are totally little people, right guys?).

Or why a god of nightmares and deformity would be named "Luxury Palacejoy the Festival of Dances."

In the dwarven world, injury isn't seen as nearly as bad as it is in ours. There is no exiling of the cripples, no killing of the weak (unless we as Overseer cause it). It could even be seen as a good thing. After all, it's equivalent to a "get out of work free" card, unless your attendants die. In fact, it could even be seen as a luxury, in some cases. After all, this is a world where, relatively commonly, people will just go crazy and make their fellow dwarf into a mug before returning to normalcy. Being wounded is one of the better things that can happen to you. You get to lie around all day, not having to face goblins or fight elves and humans.

And could it not be said that someone thrashing in the throes of a nightmare is performing a dance, of sorts?

Or why a dwarf civ would show their god of law, honor, and justice depicted as a kobold.

Imagine an origin story where the kobolds were once a grand and civilized society, but they angered the gods, and were cursed to their current state, living in squalor, unable to speak, and incapable of making food and wealth for themselves. Is it not possible? It's likely, even. It's a myth with a moral - treat the gods with respect and don't disrespect their will. That's something that myths are supposed to do, after all.


Now, these are a bit weird, but I kinda like that. Why would I want to see Generic Sky God Number 374? Once we clear away our preconceptions, we can start to get interesting things.

Something is only counter to a category if you look at it with our tinted eyes.

[endlessblaze]

Windfish are okay (they even have real-life precedent in flying fish), but Firefish would not be. The elements of Air and Fire are not opposed, and Air and Weather are actually allied, so Phoenix & Thunderbird are both good. Capricorn is always depicted with a fish/mermaid tail. (If you want to stick an animal where it doesn't belong, tack on parts from animals that DO belong. Aztecs be all, "You want to put a Serpent in the sky? Better make it Feathered, dude.")

That's a very good point. Maybe there could be a modifier applied to certain animals, if necessary? So terrestrial animals could have feathers/wings added to them if they were by chance rolled to be/represent a wind/sky god? I think a flaming fish could be a fantastic god. Maybe if it had enough correlating spheres, like [FIRE][DANCE][FISH] (Yes, that's a sphere.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The GDS thing I said was pretty dumb, but XXXXYYYY had it together:

...why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves?

What a fantastic esoteric association. The comparison of dunes to waves is very poignant and mythological.

Also keep in mind yin-yang bombs.

Fire and water, darkness and light, earth and sky,  desert and ocean.  They don't have to oppose.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves?

. . . In fact, a case could be made that birds are creatures of earth, not sky.

. . . Is it not possible that that dwarf might see [a blind cave bear's] sudden detection of them as a decree given to them as a sky god of some form, and the bears are the god's symbol in the depths?

. . . A bone-like male body-part gives rise to a pregnancy.

. . . In fact, [being maimed] could even be seen as a luxury, in some cases.

. . . And could it not be said that someone thrashing in the throes of a nightmare is performing a dance, of sorts?

. . . Imagine an origin story where the kobolds were once a grand and civilized society . . .

. . . Something is only counter to a category if you look at it with our tinted eyes.

No. Just no. Flat-out no. Absolutely not. Wrong. Thank you for playing. It has been quite some time since I've disagreed with something so strongly as I disagree with the ideas above. I applaud your diligence in bending over backwards in order to fabricate these tenuous connections, but hardly any of them make even a damned bit of sense. And who would worship a god that didn't make a damned bit of sense?

As I've said above, anyone who thinks that waves and billows are terrain to be casually climbed / wandered over by land animals is displaying a frightful lack of knowledge of hydrodynamics. Similarly, anyone who pretends that the capacity for powered flight is not absolutely critical to the survival of the vast majority of bird species is deliberately being unforgivably misleading. Your attempt to justify the use of a [MALE][DEATH][UNDEAD] symbol to represent a phenomenon that is firmly, obviously, and undeniably lodged in the [FEMALE][BIRTH][LIFE] spheres is the very definition of facile. Etc., etc.


Now, endlessblaze had a point about "yin-yang bombs":

Fire and water, darkness and light, earth and sky,  desert and ocean.  They don't have to oppose.

Yes and no--it depends on the qualities of the precise pairing, or sometimes grouping. Light and Darkness are actually directly opposed, but can be combined in one god because of the clear evidence of the surface world's endless cycle of the solar day. [True, dwarves are rather insulated from this phenomenon, but even the most cave-adapted hermit can't deny that it exists.] Moreover, Light and Dark are inextricably linked--they are strictly relative, and neither concept could even exist without the other. Similarly, the game frequently gives examples of gods that have both Fame and Rumors in their domains--I chalk those deities up as gods of "Reputation". Any god that controls the spheres of both Life and Death (& possibly Birth / Rebirth) could easily be seen as a nature god, presiding over the entire life cycle (and would be a perfect match with a Phoenix for an animal companion). These are all valid opposing pairs.

But when a god has ONE half of the matched pair WITHOUT the other, it would be a mistake to try to associate symbols and traits from the WRONG side of the balance. Sure, you can draw all the feeble connections you want ("A living body is just a body that's waiting to die! A dead body nurtures and hosts future life!"), but that will never change the fact that life is life, death is death, and there's an end to it. A Life god and a Death god need not be enemies--they could even be BFFs--but they don't go around stealing each other's names, or domains, like "Rain Rainflew the Rainy Sky-Heaven of Rain" not being the god of rain. I can see them exchanging animal companions or whatnot, but ONLY if the animal would make sense being associated with the new god's domains.

Besides this, some pairs simply ARE in direct opposition, and that's all there is to be said. Fire and water hate and will destroy each other. It's dead easy to have earth without sky (caverns), or deserts without oceans (as far as I know, the western edges of the Sahara & Namib are the only places on the planet where desert meets ocean).

Why would I want to see Generic Sky God Number 374? Once we clear away our preconceptions, we can start to get interesting things.

Now this is a valid argument. There's no point in generating a pantheon that's basically just like any other that's ever been generated. That's why, as I said, I'm completely in favor of gods picking random associations with their animals, clothes, tools, and other symbols of religious iconography--provided that the elements so chosen are not opposed to any major aspect of the god's domains. Your sky god's associated animal is a vulture, a gift from her friend, the god of death? That's cool. Just as long as it's not a kangaroo, or a whale, or a monitor lizard, or a magma crab, OR a fucking blind cave bear.

I'm in favor of pantheons being fairly unpredictable. I'm fine with them being kinda weird. But I am NOT cool with pantheons, or their individual gods, being downright stupid or nonsensical. There is nothing wrong with that position, nor do I expect there ever will be.

[GoblinCookie]

Also keep in mind yin-yang bombs.

Fire and water, darkness and light, earth and sky,  desert and ocean.  They don't have to oppose.

They do if you have a functioning brain.

[endlessblaze]

. . . why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves?

. . . In fact, a case could be made that birds are creatures of earth, not sky.

. . . Is it not possible that that dwarf might see [a blind cave bear's] sudden detection of them as a decree given to them as a sky god of some form, and the bears are the god's symbol in the depths?

. . . A bone-like male body-part gives rise to a pregnancy.

. . . In fact, [being maimed] could even be seen as a luxury, in some cases.

. . . And could it not be said that someone thrashing in the throes of a nightmare is performing a dance, of sorts?

. . . Imagine an origin story where the kobolds were once a grand and civilized society . . .

. . . Something is only counter to a category if you look at it with our tinted eyes.

No. Just no. Flat-out no. Absolutely not. Wrong. Thank you for playing. It has been quite some time since I've disagreed with something so strongly as I disagree with the ideas above. I applaud your diligence in bending over backwards in order to fabricate these tenuous connections, but hardly any of them make even a damned bit of sense. And who would worship a god that didn't make a damned bit of sense?

As I've said above, anyone who thinks that waves and billows are terrain to be casually climbed / wandered over by land animals is displaying a frightful lack of knowledge of hydrodynamics. Similarly, anyone who pretends that the capacity for powered flight is not absolutely critical to the survival of the vast majority of bird species is deliberately being unforgivably misleading. Your attempt to justify the use of a [MALE][DEATH][UNDEAD] symbol to represent a phenomenon that is firmly, obviously, and undeniably lodged in the [FEMALE][BIRTH][LIFE] spheres is the very definition of facile. Etc., etc.

I disagree, all of his statements are quite correct. there is no "bending over backward" your looking at this from a biased perspective.

Also keep in mind yin-yang bombs.

Fire and water, darkness and light, earth and sky,  desert and ocean.  They don't have to oppose.

They do if you have a functioning brain.

so now we are resorting to personal attacks? that's not a contribution to debate.

[GoblinCookie]

so now we are resorting to personal attacks? that's not a contribution to debate.

Sorry that I did not really know of a non-insulting response to the point you were making; a person who cannot tell the difference between up and down is surely a person with vertigo.  A desert and an ocean are quite clearly opposite things in the same manner, one defined by having no water and the other is defined by an abundance of water.  You *could* have a god of water, deserts and oceans all at the same time but you could not have a water-god and a desert/ocean god both at the same time.  We could have a god that controls water and thus the lack of it by negation, but you cannot have a greater god of water and a lesser god of deserts/oceans. 

You can unify opposites at a higher level but you cannot merge opposites together at the same level if your mind is sound.  I do not see anything wrong with the present god setup personally, it certainly reveals something about the ideology of the creature's in question; but I would think that you would probably want to play around with unifying opposing spheres you would go with a heirachical system by which the general concept contains within it a number of lesser concepts, some of them opposed which can either exist as seperate goods or belong to the greater god directly.

So we have the greater sphere and then various sub-spheres that represents either forms or levels of that thing, so we cannot have a god of Up&Down but we can have a god of Direction, Up and Down.  In the same manner we could develop monotheistic religions as well, where all the other spheres are collapsed into a single divinity that has the master spheres that all the other gods relate too.  In the opposite direction we can have general gods give rise to new gods that relate directly to one of the forms or levels of that thing.

[Vattic]

Spheres already have relationships with each other, unless this changed since 40d.

Spheres have a parent/child list, a friend list, and a preclude list. A deity has either one or two base spheres, and then they pick friends of those spheres, while never choosing a precluded or parent/child sphere of any of the spheres they already have. I tried to be pretty lax with the preclude list so that interesting relationships could pop up. There will obviously be problems and omissions and things here, since I had to match 100+ spheres together several times and no doubt made mistakes. Feel free to discuss.

A quote from Toady, found on the 40d wiki page for spheres.

[GoblinCookie]

Spheres already have relationships with each other, unless this changed since 40d.

Spheres have a parent/child list, a friend list, and a preclude list. A deity has either one or two base spheres, and then they pick friends of those spheres, while never choosing a precluded or parent/child sphere of any of the spheres they already have. I tried to be pretty lax with the preclude list so that interesting relationships could pop up. There will obviously be problems and omissions and things here, since I had to match 100+ spheres together several times and no doubt made mistakes. Feel free to discuss.

A quote from Toady, found on the 40d wiki page for spheres.

I know they have relationships with eachother, it is just not entirely clear what those relationships *are* exactly.

[Dirst]

If you are rolling truly random gods, then SixOfSpades has a good point that one should not have an association opposed to its main attributes.  But in a more organic system, wherein prehistorical and historical events find their way into myths, these sorts of things are almost inevitable.

The sky god descends into the caverns for arbitrary mythy reasons and defeats a cave dragon, and decided to make a totem out of the skull.  This may leave sky god worshipers with an imperative to delve at least a bit underground (bravely leaving the comforting embrace of the Dome) and defeat something there.

Of course, the logical conclusion of this is for dwarves to set up little underground safaris to extract some money from these people.  "Oh no, sir, your feeble tap strike was most certainly the mortal blow... I was simply putting the poor creature out of its misery with my axe."

[endlessblaze]

or a sky god might have gone underground to fight his brother who was hiding there. and while there he subdued and tamed a cave dragon.

 I would honestly like to see something like that.

[SixOfSpades]

or a sky god might have gone underground to fight his brother who was hiding there. and while there he subdued and tamed a cave dragon. I would honestly like to see something like that.

If and ONLY if he either uses his divinity to grant the cave dragon wings, or chooses not to adopt the creature as his totemic animal at all.

[Dirst]

or a sky god might have gone underground to fight his brother who was hiding there. and while there he subdued and tamed a cave dragon. I would honestly like to see something like that.

If and ONLY if he either uses his divinity to grant the cave dragon wings, or chooses not to adopt the creature as his totemic animal at all.

I meant a DF totem, which is basically just a trophy.