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Author Topic: More depictions of gods  (Read 23138 times)

AceSV

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More depictions of gods
« on: September 03, 2015, 11:42:13 pm »

So right now, deities are not a big part of the game and have very sparse descriptions.  As far as I know, the only depictions possible right now are as males or females of the worshipper's race, or skeletons if it's a god of death or blight or whatever.  But with temples coming up, it might be cool to have some more varied depictions of deities.  Here are some ideas:

Animal Parts - Most recognizable would be the Egyptian gods like Horus with the head of a falcon or Anubis with the head of a jackal.  I could also see centaur or mermaid like gods in charge of nature spheres.  There are also some gods or at least pantheon figures who just are animals, like the various Native American animal characters or Hanuman the monkey or the Hindu cow goddess whose name escapes me. 

Associated Objects - Thor holds a hammer, Hermes holds the caduceus, Death holds a scythe, etc.  Hindu gods often hold multiple objects, like Shiva holds a trident and drum, Vishnu holds a lotus, chakram, mace and conch, Durga holds an arsenal of weapons in her many arms.  They could also be associated with an item of clothing, for example Odin is often depicted as wearing a wide brimmed hat which hides his missing eye, and Freya wears the necklace/choker/torc Brisingamen.  Gods might possess items which are purely fanciful like Zeus' thunderbolts, Christ's halo or Sun Wukong's cloud car.  Gods might also possess very large items like a chariot, ship or fortress with which they are depicted.  Some items should be treated as named artifacts, for example, Thor's hammer isn't just any hammer, it is Mjollnir a legend in its own right, while Zeus' thunderbolts are a dime a dozen. 

Odd Body Parts - A third eye, extra limbs, a tail, wings, etc.  The bodhisattva Vajrapani is often depicted as ogrelike and fearsome.  A god might have a distinctive appearance like a goddess of great beauty or a god with bulging muscles.  They could have odd skin colors, like Osiris is green, Shiva is blue. 

Multiple Forms - Some deities are depicted in multiple forms.  For example, the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara is sometimes a normal humanoid, and at other times has eleven faces and a thousand arms, each with a eye in the palm.  Vishnu appears as various avatars, such as Rama and Krishna.  Krishna may be depicted either as an adult or as a child.  Odin often uses disguises, or his form may change depending on his role, for example, Odin as a warrior, Odin as an old man, Odin as a shaman, Odin as the netherworld ferryman, etc.  Odin also takes on multiple names to fit multiple roles, so a dwarf might depict "Odin as Draugadróttinn, Lord of Undead" or "Odin as Hangi, the Hanged One".  Some gods might not have a specific form, but a specific feature, for example, a trickster god might be able to appear as a man or a woman or any animal, but always has a third eye and a fox's tail.  So dwarves might generate depictions like "The Trickster, depicted as a young male dwarf with a third eye and a fox's tail" or "The Trickster, depicted as a horse mare with a third eye and fox's tail." 

Mythos Reference - Gods could be depicted doing things that are part of their mythology, such as Thor dueling Hrungnir, Christ healing the sick or Amaterasu hiding in a cave. 

Companions - Gods might be depicted with a person or animal that is strongly associated with them.  For example, Odin riding his 8 legged steed, Sleipnir, or Vishnu riding on Shesha or Garuda.  There might be a class of creatures identified with the diety, for example, Indra surrounded by Gandharvas, a nature god surrounded by animals, a good god surrounded by fairies and unicorns or a death god surrounded by the undead. 

Sub-gods - Some religions have positions which are holy but not on the same level of gods.  For example, Christian art might depict saints, angels, gargoyles, the apostles and even the occasional demon.  Thai temples are guarded by Yaksha and dragons.  The Norse had Jotuns, Landvaettir, and good ol' Trolls, Elves and Dwarves.  A lot of cultures also have local deities, like a guardian of a particular city or a family might pray to its ancestors for guidance.  Most are familiar with India's holy cows and there are also places where snakes and monkeys are protected.  In china and japan there are 4 holy animal constellations that guard the cardinal directions and often show up in anime, the dragon, Seiryuu, the bird, Suzaku, the turtle-snake, Genbu, and the white tiger, Byakko, occasionally joined by the 5th animal, Qilin, representing zenith (more so in china and thus not so much in anime).  But it's a little tricky to give credit to such creatures when there are real angels and demons roaming the world of DF. 

EDIT: Adding this one to the top:
I had another thought, if there's a god worshipped by more than one race, for example, both humans and dwarves might have a god of fortresses, each race might depict that god as one of themselves, and have other regional variations.  So you might see "Fortressman, depicted as a dwarf holding the golden pick Arcbad" in dwarf art and "Fortressman, depicted as a human holding the golden cauldron Arcbad" in human art.  If there are demon-figures, like Satan or Loki, they might be depicted as a race that the home civ is at war with or a "common" mega-beast.  So DwarfSatan might be depicted as a goblin, a cyclops or a weretapir.  Civs might also treat the gods of their enemies as demon-figures.  In real-life, Baal, Beelzebub and Sin were mostly positive gods in the pantheons of the ancient middle east that become demons in the Christian cosmology.  (Baal did have a thing for human sacrifice...)

If dwarves associate a particular living thing with their theological iconography, they might get emotional responses to it.  So if DwarfSatan is indeed depicted as a cyclops, or if DwarfSatan is associated with cyclopes, a dwarf who kills a cyclops could receive a happy thought when killing a "spawn of DwarfSatan" if that dwarf is religious, and other religious dwarves might lionize the cyclops slayer.  "Urist felt happy when talking to a cyclops-slayer" or they might be more likely to depict the cyclops slaying in artwork.  If an entire civilization, let's say goblins, worships a god that is considered Satanic by your own civ, you'll be much more likely to go to war with them and your dwarves will suffer less negative thoughts when slaying humans or stockpiling human corpses.  Conversely, if an animal is considered sacred, let's say cows are, the dwarves might feel guilty when butchering a cow, and might consider cow items, like cow hoof earrings or a cow leather robe to be either highly valuable or completely taboo.  They might get extra happy thoughts when consuming cow's milk and cow cheese and get extra value or happiness from cows as pets.  And if a civ shares a god with your own pantheon, you should be less likely to go to war with them and feel extra guilty when killing fellow believers. 

That could also lead to internal feuding, believers of A not getting along with believers of B or with non-religious dwarves, or it could open a way to start wars with other dwarven civs.   
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 08:40:23 pm by AceSV »
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2015, 07:21:37 am »

Good idea, probably planned somewhere, but still it would be nice to see some of your ideas implemented. I always love it when animals are picked as gods, so seeing more variety and hilarious randomly generated god persons would be a great plus.
Othruk, the god of nature, is often depicted as a thick man with the head of a mongoose. His four arms are positioned in a ritualistic manner, and each hand holds a different item. A barrel of ichor and a lash in the left hands, and a giant cave spide sock as well as a pig roast on the right hands.
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2015, 10:53:23 pm »

I quite like this idea. Deities are pretty boring right now, and this would make them a lot more interesting. The only problem is that there are already deities, most pantheons have one, which is depicted as an animal, but that's just one sentence of that whole thing that was unnecessary so it's good.
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2015, 11:54:56 pm »

Good idea, probably planned somewhere, but still it would be nice to see some of your ideas implemented. I always love it when animals are picked as gods, so seeing more variety and hilarious randomly generated god persons would be a great plus.
Othruk, the god of nature, is often depicted as a thick man with the head of a mongoose. His four arms are positioned in a ritualistic manner, and each hand holds a different item. A barrel of ichor and a lash in the left hands, and a giant cave spide sock as well as a pig roast on the right hands.
I also like the idea.  What's funny is that games running the mod in my signature will end up with a handful of gods depicted as Pet Rocks.  Seems fitting in that DF gods don't really do much in the current version.
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Alfrodo

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 10:49:33 am »

Also, The body parts / Weapons should have some sort of meaning, rather than entirely random.

The god of hunt should reasonably have a crossbow, bolts, spear, or quiver.

And a trickster god would have bias toward weasel, fox, Panther, Mockingbird or Blue/Grey Jay parts.

And then a god of chaos would be entirely random.

Mibi, The Elven god of Chaos is often depicted with a single goat leg, gorilla and octopus arms, and carries an urn, a cat, and a Pot of soup. It is often depicted wearing a Trucker cap and a fedora.
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AceSV

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 11:34:24 am »

I quite like this idea. Deities are pretty boring right now, and this would make them a lot more interesting. The only problem is that there are already deities, most pantheons have one, which is depicted as an animal, but that's just one sentence of that whole thing that was unnecessary so it's good.

Huh, I don't think I've ever encountered one. 

I had another thought, if there's a god worshipped by more than one race, for example, both humans and dwarves might have a god of fortresses, each race might depict that god as one of themselves, and have other regional variations.  So you might see "Fortressman, depicted as a dwarf holding the golden pick Arcbad" in dwarf art and "Fortressman, depicted as a human holding the golden cauldron Arcbad" in human art.  If there are demon-figures, like Satan or Loki, they might be depicted as a race that the home civ is at war with or a "common" mega-beast.  So DwarfSatan might be depicted as a goblin, a cyclops or a weretapir.  Civs might also treat the gods of their enemies as demon-figures.  In real-life, Baal, Beelzebub and Sin were mostly positive gods in the pantheons of the ancient middle east that become demons in the Christian cosmology.  (Baal did have a thing for human sacrifice...)

If dwarves associate a particular living thing with their theological iconography, they might get emotional responses to it.  So if DwarfSatan is indeed depicted as a cyclops, or if DwarfSatan is associated with cyclopes, a dwarf who kills a cyclops could receive a happy thought when killing a "spawn of DwarfSatan" if that dwarf is religious, and other religious dwarves might lionize the cyclops slayer.  "Urist felt happy when talking to a cyclops-slayer" or they might be more likely to depict the cyclops slaying in artwork.  If an entire civilization, let's say goblins, worships a god that is considered Satanic by your own civ, you'll be much more likely to go to war with them and your dwarves will suffer less negative thoughts when slaying humans or stockpiling human corpses.  Conversely, if an animal is considered sacred, let's say cows are, the dwarves might feel guilty when butchering a cow, and might consider cow items, like cow hoof earrings or a cow leather robe to be either highly valuable or completely taboo.  They might get extra happy thoughts when consuming cow's milk and cow cheese and get extra value or happiness from cows as pets.  And if a civ shares a god with your own pantheon, you should be less likely to go to war with them and feel extra guilty when killing fellow believers. 

That could also lead to internal feuding, believers of A not getting along with believers of B or with non-religious dwarves, or it could open a way to start wars with other dwarven civs.   


Also, The body parts / Weapons should have some sort of meaning, rather than entirely random.

The god of hunt should reasonably have a crossbow, bolts, spear, or quiver.

I think a randomized item would give the gods more flavor.  There are also items that seem random, even though they had meaning in real gods.  For example, Skadi, associated with the hunt, is also associated with skiing. 

Just hitting the random page button on the wiki to try this out, I got wormy tendril, fire opal and jug.  This gives you some immediate head canon about the god.  Wormy tendrils suggests that the god hunts in evil biomes or maybe is evil.  Fire opal seems like a meaningless preference, but it would be cool for citizens to associate fire opals with their deity.  Maybe in mythology, the fire opal was left behind by something the god hunted.  The Jug is an item for beekeeping, so it seems like the god does some beekeeping when he's not off hunting. 

I want to try this a few times.  So an RNG gives me the associated sphere, and the random wiki page gives me 3 things associated with the god. 

WIND
Swan Man
Slug Man
Brewer

BOUNDARIES
Slate
White Opal
Lye Maker

PERSUASION
Baby Toes Succulent
Night Troll
Plump Helmet

So there are some completely nonsensical things, but I like some of the random ideas, like that the profession of brewing was created by a Wind God, or that Night Trolls (who kidnap spouses) are spawn of or companions of a Persuasion God.  So, less random than pressing the Random Page button on the wiki would be good, but I think a little too much random will be necessary for Armok's amusement. 

And a trickster god would have bias toward weasel, fox, Panther, Mockingbird or Blue/Grey Jay parts.

I definitely don't want particular animal associations.  That's already a real-world thing.  Snakes are considered "evil" or at least pests in Western culture, but they were holy to the ancient greeks and still are in parts of India.  I'd rather see gods associated with completely random batcrap animals.  So for the trickster god, pressing the random wiki page and waiting for animals gives me, Spotted Ratfish, Spermwhale Man, Giant Bat, Giant Desert Scorpion and finally a normal non-vermin animal, the Mountain Goat.  "This is Ilultizen, god of trickery, depicted as a Spermwale Man, with his companions Fesh the Giant Bat and Dugud the Giant Desert Scorpion.  Ilultizen is riding a Mountain Goat."  That's what a DF god should be like. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 11:48:27 am by AceSV »
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Alfrodo

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 04:53:25 pm »

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I definitely don't want particular animal associations.  That's already a real-world thing.  Snakes are considered "evil" or at least pests in Western culture, but they were holy to the ancient greeks and still are in parts of India.  I'd rather see gods associated with completely random batcrap animals.  So for the trickster god, pressing the random wiki page and waiting for animals gives me, Spotted Ratfish, Spermwhale Man, Giant Bat, Giant Desert Scorpion and finally a normal non-vermin animal, the Mountain Goat.  "This is Ilultizen, god of trickery, depicted as a Spermwale Man, with his companions Fesh the Giant Bat and Dugud the Giant Desert Scorpion.  Ilultizen is riding a Mountain Goat."  That's what a DF god should be like.

You know what?

I couldn't agree more, now that I look at it. 


Spermwhale men would become symbols of trickery by being associated with the god.  Rather than vice versa.
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Vattic

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2015, 06:44:26 pm »

Brewing or booze making more generally being invented by a wind god makes some sense. Perhaps said god enjoys what booze evaporates during the process. The angel's share if you like.

I suspect, or just hope, more detailed gods will arrive with the myth generator.

Edit: I think some animal associations make sense regardless of world. Like flying animals for sky and wind, or animals that sneak for sneakiness. Others make less sense and shouldn't be carried over.

Edit 2: Alfrodo beat me to it.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 06:48:01 pm by Vattic »
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2015, 06:45:27 pm »

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I definitely don't want particular animal associations.  That's already a real-world thing.  . . .  I'd rather see gods associated with completely random batcrap animals.
And I disagree. If a god of, say, oceans, were depicted riding a giant desert scorpion, or a mountain goat, or some other animal that never goes anywhere near the ocean, then not only would it not make any sense, but it would not be believable, and belief is what allows gods to exist. It would be far better to have each domain have sets of appropriately "preferred" and "forbidden" animals (and their respective men, if applicable), so that a god of fortresses would be more likely to have a tortoise or pangolin as its animal companion, while the god of jewels gets a crow or raccoon.
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Vattic

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2015, 06:51:44 pm »

SixOfSpades: You posted while I was editing my last post in the same vein. I'd argue for a system that generates some odd connections as that would be realistic (owls being seen as wise/knowledgeable despite not being the cleverest of birds through their association with Athena who was goddess of those things among others).
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AceSV

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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2015, 07:15:56 pm »

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I definitely don't want particular animal associations.  That's already a real-world thing.  . . .  I'd rather see gods associated with completely random batcrap animals.
And I disagree. If a god of, say, oceans, were depicted riding a giant desert scorpion, or a mountain goat, or some other animal that never goes anywhere near the ocean, then not only would it not make any sense, but it would not be believable, and belief is what allows gods to exist. It would be far better to have each domain have sets of appropriately "preferred" and "forbidden" animals (and their respective men, if applicable), so that a god of fortresses would be more likely to have a tortoise or pangolin as its animal companion, while the god of jewels gets a crow or raccoon.

I'm not sure you need to do it for every sphere, but spheres that are related to a particular biome should have things related to their biome.  So yeah, an ocean god should ride on ocean creatures, wear clothing made of shells and kelp and live in a fortress of sand and salt, but a god of murder or painting shouldn't be so picky.  I'm always surprised by how crazy some godly associations are, and I want DF gods to be the same if not moreso.  For example, Thor, Norse god of Thunder or more accurately Strength, wields a hammer as a weapon in a time and culture when bludgeoning weapons were not considered useful for war, rides a chariot driven by goats, which he could kill and eat and bring back to life the next day, owns a belt and gloves that magically increased his strength, has a lump of whetstone embedded in his skull, a shard of the weapon used by the stone skinned jotun Hrungnir during their duel, and is famous for wrestling the giant serpent that wraps around the world's oceans, which is destined to kill him at the end of the world, and once dressed up as a woman to sneak into a jotun's lair to retrieve his hammer when it was stolen.  Does that not sound like something Dwarf Fortress cooked up? 

If the DF god generator always made fortress gods with holy shields and freedom gods with bird friends, that would be boring and sad.  I agree that outright weird things like the Wind god being associated with Slug Men should be avoided, but I'd prefer crazy batshit gods to boring predictable gods. 

I suspect, or just hope, more detailed gods will arrive with the myth generator.

Where is the info for that feature?  Was it in DF talk?
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2015, 08:24:14 pm »

I'd argue for a system that generates some odd connections as that would be realistic . . .

. . . So yeah, an ocean god should ride on ocean creatures, wear clothing made of shells and kelp and live in a fortress of sand and salt, but a god of murder or painting shouldn't be so picky. . . . If the DF god generator always made fortress gods with holy shields and freedom gods with bird friends, that would be boring and sad.  I agree that outright weird things like the Wind god being associated with Slug Men should be avoided, but I'd prefer crazy batshit gods to boring predictable gods.

I didn't mean to imply that I'd favor a discrete set from which the game must pull animals, only that it would be more likely to. I meant the "preferred" and "forbidden" pools of [animals/weapons/tools/other traits] to be exactly that, preferred and forbidden, with a wide gulf of "neutral" things between them. So a god of agriculture could still be pictured with a bellows, it would simply be more likely to see a plow there instead. Maybe there could be a "discouraged" pool as well, to allow for the possibility of "weird but not exactly stupid" pairings.

I'm all for gods and their domains going in all sorts of random-ass directions, as long as that direction is NOT exactly opposite of what would be appropriate. I once generated a dwarven pantheon where the god of rain was named "Fragrance". I didn't mind that in the least--what I did object to was that a different god in the same pantheon was named "Rain Rainflew the Rainy Sky-Heaven of Rain". True story.
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2015, 07:14:01 pm »

I have to say, I agree with some limitations on held and associated items, but I don't think that there should be much, if any, limitations on animal associations. Take for example Legend of Zelda's Windfish, Poseidon's creation of horses, the flaming Phoenix, the Thunderbird, or Capricorn, the goat of the sea. Think about how cool it would be if a god of fire was surrounded by a swarm of beetles. It might not say it in the game, but you might imagine them as having a ruby sheen, and being hot to the touch. That's one of the great things about Dwarf Fortress, is that it supplies these odd match-ups and you glue them together with your imagination. Frankly what comes to mind for me when I hear that an ocean god is riding a Giant Desert Scorpion is that the dwarfs misinterpreted what is actually a lobster.
Perhaps what is in order for the deity association system is an overhaul of spheres. Everything would have a sphere, biomes, gems, plants and animals to an extent, tools, professions, etc.. Then in the rolling for the god when it gets to associated items and animals it will have maybe a 50% chance of picking something from an associated sphere. Maybe there will be a 10% chance that the god will have a profession picked for it, and then because a profession is very telling of what you do, professions would have closer to a 90% chance of being from an associated sphere. So a god of the ocean would have around a 50% chance of being a fish person, and if it makes the roll to have a profession then it would most likely be represented as a fisherman, or sailor.
Overlapping spheres would also make things interesting. If this system worked properly, god of Fire and Trees or something would have a lot of overlap into various forces of nature, and would end up with its associations pointing it towards being a force of nature and disasters. A god of Fire and Protection however would have associations suggesting a hearth fire god.
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2015, 07:59:49 pm »

I'd say that the interesting thing about this is that you could tie almost any pair of things together with a bit of thought. The Wind god being a slug man could be a martyr figure who gave his Wind, damning him to slowly wander the earth on foot in order to put out a great fire or prevent a calamity in the distant past. Gods were often tied to things seem to make no sense at first glance, so why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves? They can and should form their own connections, irregardless of ours. A god of fire and protection could be either a god of the hearth or a forceful god, usually calm but rising into a fiery fury when something bound to his protection is threatened. I'd say that anything should be fair game, allowing far, far more interesting gods, devoid of our mental associations past the fourth wall.
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Re: More depictions of gods
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2015, 01:00:00 pm »

. . . I don't think that there should be much, if any, limitations on animal associations. Take for example Legend of Zelda's Windfish, Poseidon's creation of horses, the flaming Phoenix, the Thunderbird, or Capricorn, the goat of the sea.
Windfish are okay (they even have real-life precedent in flying fish), but Firefish would not be. The elements of Air and Fire are not opposed, and Air and Weather are actually allied, so Phoenix & Thunderbird are both good. Capricorn is always depicted with a fish/mermaid tail. (If you want to stick an animal where it doesn't belong, tack on parts from animals that DO belong. Aztecs be all, "You want to put a Serpent in the sky? Better make it Feathered, dude.")

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Frankly what comes to mind for me when I hear that an ocean god is riding a Giant Desert Scorpion is that the dwarfs misinterpreted what is actually a lobster.
Unlikely, as dwarves know about scorpions, lobsters, and cave lobsters, and we must assume they can tell the difference.

Your other suggestions seem quite sound, by the way.


I'd say that the interesting thing about this is that you could tie almost any pair of things together with a bit of thought. . . . Gods were often tied to things seem to make no sense at first glance, so why couldn't a mountain goat be tied to a god of the ocean, climbing the many cliffs and valleys of the waves during storms, or a giant desert scorpion to scuttle over the dunes of the calmer waves?
I find your lack of hydrodynamic knowledge disturbing. As for unexpected associations, as I've said, I have no problem with a deity having traits that seem bizarre, as long as those traits do NOT run directly counter to that god's domains. For example, please try to rationalize how a blind cave bear somehow managed to beat out every single species of bird to become the animal associated with a sky god. Or why a god of pregnancy would be represented as a skeletal male dwarf. Or why a god of nightmares and deformity would be named "Luxury Palacejoy the Festival of Dances." Or why a dwarf civ would show their god of law, honor, and justice depicted as a kobold.

Yes, there are instances where things that generally oppose each other can be seen to have a common link--e.g., a god whose domains include both fame and rumors could be described as a god of reputation. A deity who presides over birth as well as suicide could be seen as a "cycle of life" god. But these are by far the exception, rather than the rule.
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