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[Ukrainian Ranger]

Powerful engine may require 3 oil, without powerful engine this design has no sense.

And small arms obsession is becoming tiresome.

Edit: PS. cheap everything is a bad way to play this game

[Andres]

Powerful engine may require 3 oil, without powerful engine this design has no sense.

We're making the whole plane out of aluminium. That also means the insides and the engine. With a lighter, more efficient engine, it might not need 3 Oil.

And small arms obsession is becoming tiresome.

Tell me then, how will a dive bomber save us in the Mountains? We're losing there because of two small arms that Moskurg invented. How will a dive bomber help us fight against them? We blew up their trains once and that didn't stop them from supplying their troops at all. It's simply not a game mechanic. Getting them 1 less Ore will only make their recoilless rifles and their shitty radios more Expensive. Nothing else.

Edit: PS. cheap everything is a bad way to play this game

But some cheap things are good. Cheap fighter craft is one of the reasons that allowed us to win in the skies. We had three times as many airplanes as they did and that gave us a big advantage.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[VoidSlayer]

You know, the reason the current plane is being outclassed is it has no maneuverable guns.

We could fix that by changing the mounting on one gun to be central and putting another on the back on a pivot, rather then building a competently new plane this turn.

With who manning them? We have a single-seat fighter.

 Also, what ebbor said about fighters with turrets also includes the fact that turrets, and their gunners, are heavy. Case in point, the British at one point built a fighter where the only armament was 4 MGs in one turret, with the same engine as a hurricane. It did not do well.

What, no love for my design? It's not as sexy as a dive bomber, but it still can be used to attack ground targets and it should be a much better fighter than what they currently have(and should be parity for anything new they might field). We can modify our design later to have a dive bomber variant(basically sacrifice some speed to increase bomb load and add dive flaps)

I liked your plane, but the assault rifle was too good an idea to pass up.  Dive bomber is silly.

[Andres]

You know guys, screw it! We got 4 ore. Time to take some risks and use it.

Come to think of it, why are we taking this risk? The assault rifle, the plane Revision, and the interceptor are all less risky than this. The assault rifle can save us in the Jungle and Mountains (something that a plane alone absolutely cannot do), the revision lets us fight their bombers better and actually lets us hit their trains, and the interceptor is actually specialised in killing bombers.

The divebomber is a bad idea. It has a higher chance of failing than other propositions, the other propositions can do the job just as well if not better, and the divebomber is specifically designed to be Expensive, unlike the interceptor or the revision which are cheap. (Cheap planes are actually useful.)

the AS19C is extremely numerous. Many fights are two or three on one, in favor of Arstotzka. In general, air superiority goes to Arstotzka.

The war in the air generally returns to Arstotzka's favor, their airplanes are more plentiful again.

Glory to Arstotzka.

EDIT: Also, UR is suggesting we should take that risk because we have 4 Ore. We will lose that 4 Ore unless we hold the Mountains.

[Aseaheru]

 Dive bombers should help in the mountains, since their bombers are helping them there somewhat. It may have less of a chance of failure than an AR (Since ARs are still about two decades ahead of this time period, whereas divebombers are not).

[Andres]

As far as I can tell, ARs were invented as late as they were only because their usefulness hadn't been realised until then. It was popular belief that SMGs and battle rifles were all that were needed. Are there any proper mechanical issues that would prevent us from inventing them?

Even if we don't go with an AR, an LMG would at least let us hold out in the two fronts.

EDIT: If we make the LMG cheap and light enough, there's a chance we could have it act as an assault rifle, similar to the BAR.

EDIT2:

Dive bombers should help in the mountains, since their bombers are helping them there somewhat.

Somewhat. The peak of their help was when they were cheap. The Brumby and the RR helped them much more than their bombers.

EDIT4: Their bombers were effective because they focused on payload. Divebombers are focused more on quick, surgical strikes and are thus unsuitable for much help in the Mountains, I would think.

[Aseaheru]

 We have GPMGs up the wazoo, supported by autocannons in 2/3 active fronts. We donot need a new machine gun. Not until we get plastics, or that sort of thing. As for a BAR, we allready sort of have that in the AS-F14A.

 ARs where designed late due to perceived lack of need and due to manufacturing issues, mostly. Complexity was also a pain.

[Andres]

We have GPMGs up the wazoo, supported by autocannons in 2/3 active fronts. We donot need a new machine gun. Not until we get plastics, or that sort of thing. As for a BAR, we allready sort of have that in the AS-F14A.

Light machine gun. Our 1910 is a HMG and our autocannon is even heavier. Heck, the battle report explicitly says that our 1910 simply isn't very useful in the Mountains, unlike their Brumby. Our 1910 is a HMG while the Brumby is an LMG. The difference between the acronyms is Light Machine Gun and Heavy Machine Gun. LMGs can be operated by one person and are significantly more portable. They are not the same things.
A BAR is a fully automatic LMG, small enough to kinda be used as an assault rifle. The F14A is a semi-automatic battle rifle. We do not "sort of have a BAR".

[Aseaheru]

 Our MG is a GPMG. It has detachable barrels and can be fired on the move. I am not disputing that they have a better machinegun than our GPMG, nor that our MG is a LMG.

 For clarification, a LMG is a machine gun designed to be employed by an individual soldier, with or without an assistant, as an infantry support weapon. Light machine guns are often used as squad automatic weapons, while a GPMG is an air-cooled, belt-fed weapon with a quick change barrel that can be used in a variety of roles, from bipod- or tripod-mounted infantry support, to deployment as a helicopter door gun, or a vehicle-mounted support weapon.
 Meanwhile, HMGs are designed to provide increased range, penetration and destructive power against vehicles, buildings, aircraft and light fortifications beyond the standard rifle calibers used in medium or general-purpose machine guns, or the intermediate cartridges used in light machine guns.
 They also weigh about 50KG.

 Our semi-auto rifle uses rounds the same size as a BAR, and semi auto simply means that it fires as fast as you can pull the trigger. The main difference between our rifle and the BAR is that ours is lighter, smaller, and fires slightly less quickly.
 

[Andres]

But neither our 1910 nor our F14A are winning us the war in the Mountains while the Brumby and the RR are. That's enough to signify a difference.
A dive bomber wouldn't be as useful as their bomber was and their bomber was only somewhat useful. If our dive bomber is Expensive, it'll be even less useful.
Matching their Brumby with an equivalent would help, as would a sniper rifle and to a lesser extent an assault rifle. If we want to keep a hold of the Mountains, we're gonna have to pick one of those three designs rather than any kind of bomber, especially a dive bomber.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Mountains are 90% lost. I think the only way to semi-reliably hold them is to go for our own recoilless rifles. LMG will not fix lack of firepower.

There are little else we can do when enemy got a weapon straight from 1960s and it is cheap and reliable

[Aseaheru]

 I would argue that dive bombers are more effective against ground droops, with normal bombers being far, far better against static emplacements.

 However, most of this discussion appears better suited for next turn. This turn is mostly wrapped up, afterall, with the votes going mostly to either the divebomber which can also act as a fighter or to your assault/battle rifle. What cartage are you planning on using anyways?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Speaking of cartridges, got curios what real life 0.6 inch anti-elephant guns used. 15.7mmX76mm (overall length 93mm) weighting 58 grammes is the answer.

[Andres]

Mountains are 90% lost. I think the only way to semi-reliably hold them is to go for our own recoilless rifles.

Recoilless rifles are unnecessary. A sniper rifle would be easier to design and would outperform their own. If we combined the sniper with a uniform revision, we'd do rather well in the Mountains.

I would argue that dive bombers are more effective against ground droops, with normal bombers being far, far better against static emplacements.

Mortars are even more useful since you can assault ground troops with several explosives in a minute, plus they don't need refueling. Our mortars aren't very useful in the Mountains any more. (It stopped being useful around the time they brought in their Brumby, I think.)

However, most of this discussion appears better suited for next turn. This turn is mostly wrapped up, afterall, with the votes going mostly to either the divebomber which can also act as a fighter or to your assault/battle rifle. What cartage are you planning on using anyways?

It's going to need to outperform their cheap, aluminium-made bomber if it's going to be of any use as a fighter. As for what cartrdige I planned on using, 7.62mm for both the LMG and the assault rifle.
Why should we get a new small arm next year? They'd help keep the Mountains a lot more than a dive bomber and if we do keep the Mountains this year, we get cheap armoured cars and cheap aluminium A19Cs if we revise them this year. If anything, we should save the new aircraft design for next year so it can be cheap.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[Sensei]

Hoo boy. Can someone tally the bomber/assault rifle votes while I'm in the Moskurg thread?