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[Henny]

Some would consider forcing global minorities into racemixing just to wipe out what's left of people like the Jews, Aborigines and Native Americans seems like a pretty big dick move - hypocritical, maybe, but definitely purposeful

Well this would be as part of a program to eventually not have any more pure specimens of any race.

I don't think pure specimens of any race are even a thing now.

Hey, I for one am surprisingly aryan. Well, minus the muscle mass and national socialist ideology, but it's still fairly close.

My dad has black, curly hair (well, had) and my mother has asiatic eyes. But we're all homogeneous here in Sweden.

[BoredVirulence]

I don't know, maybe its just where I grew up (northern most suburb of Atlanta, GA. [The megacity of the south]). I grew up where you expect to see rampant racism, and instead I saw diversity and acceptance. Rednecks being best friends with the black basketball star as an example, and it was the rule not the exception.

Racism will always exist. People always make stereotypes, and sometimes there are grains of truth to those stereotypes. Of course, that exists not because of genetics, but because of cultural background. Racism as an issue will only go away by not teaching it to the next generation. There will always be holdouts who teach their kids to be racist, but generally it will slowly pass. My 7 year old nephew-in-law didn't understand black and white until his teacher taught him, he never saw it before. That's not because he was raised to be tolerant and to toss aside prejudice, but because he wasn't taught prejudice.

Racism exists when stereotypes are created, assumed true, and preemptively acted upon. A common stereotype here is that black drivers are slower than white, particularly women. Its easy to see when its true, but rarely do you note when its false, so there is a perceived truth to it. Its not a harmful stereotype because it isn't something you preemptively act on, and its difficult to since you rarely see the driver of the car in front of you until you pass them.

So I don't think stereotypes will ever pass. Instead, teach that you shouldn't preemptively judge based on a stereotype. A common stereotype is that white men are more educated than black men. And its true there were more white men at my engineering school, but you wouldn't have guessed that after speaking to any of the white and black men at my old college. Teaching people that stereotypes are inherently harmful is morally wrong and false. What about the stereotype about serial killers usually being white men? Its true. What is wrong is assuming someone is a serial killer because they fit the stereotype.

An important lesson to throw in there is that you more often notice when something conforms to your pattern than when it doesn't. There is a nearby intersection that is notorious for its red light. Its a very small road intersecting with a major highway, so you expect that. Most people don't know the timer was replaced with a sensor a few years ago, but people still think negatively about how long they must wait, and dismiss when it immediately turns green for them. They immediately reinforce their assumption and dismiss it when it doesn't hold.

Also, forcing people to marry inter-racially and "crossbreed" is very similar to eugenics. Would you rather all of the racists be forced to marry women they hate, beat them, hate their children, and screw them up for a few generations, just because of the misguided belief that exterminating diversity can be accomplished, and will result in a better world?


TL;DR, people see patterns naturally, and its important. Instead, teach people how to be more human, and understand when not to assume based on a pattern they believe is true, and to challenge the patterns. Man is an animal, and civilization is in many ways about the transcendence from animal behavior. Our natural ability to see and reinforce patterns is an animal trait, and important. Understand when its not the answer, like understanding when violence is not the answer. Like violence, sometimes trusting the pattern is a good thing.

[Frumple]

I don't know, maybe its just where I grew up (northern most suburb of Atlanta, GA. [The megacity of the south]).

It definitely, definitely was. The suburbs in general (excepting the occasional gated community, anyway) trend towards being some of the less overtly racist areas in the states, especially around some the larger cities (like Atlanta, heh), iirc. You want to see some shit, you go into the inner city or out into the sticks.

Georgia in particular... I've talked to people (and note the plural -- this has happened to more than one person, coming from different places) that's seen tiny race riots happen in the last ten, twenty years (probably less -- these were college students talking about highschool years) in parts of south georgia. Few dozen kids breaking out into a race vs race brawl in the middle of a school, stuff like that. Talked to folks that come from areas in that state where it's still damned dangerous for a person to just walk through certain parts of the places they lived, due entirely to their skin color. Parts of the state are doing alright, but a lot of it is still experiencing racial tensions and racism like goddamn.

[Loud Whispers]

Racism will always exist. People always make stereotypes, and sometimes there are grains of truth to those stereotypes. Of course, that exists not because of genetics, but because of cultural background. Racism as an issue will only go away by not teaching it to the next generation. There will always be holdouts who teach their kids to be racist, but generally it will slowly pass. My 7 year old nephew-in-law didn't understand black and white until his teacher taught him, he never saw it before. That's not because he was raised to be tolerant and to toss aside prejudice, but because he wasn't taught prejudice.

That's a nice anecdote, but that's also assuming that much more of human nature is learned and not innate. You will never erase gender differences, prejudice, love, violence, greed, homosexuality or race from your society; many have tried, none have succeeded. Like cancer or something more benign like our brains, the good and bad are a part of us. I wonder, how many of us learned their sexuality, because they were taught it; or discovered it, because it was?
If we are to bring up interesting anecdotes of childhood, I was raised in a mixed race family of mixed race persons in the most diverse capital of the world in a school that taught us we were all the same and could do the same things. Problem is, what was said did not match up with what was seen. It was abundantly clear we all hailed from four corners of the globe. We were all friends, but that speaks more to good nature, good times and knowing who you could trust. When things went to shit people very quickly began flocking to their ilk, or the closest to it. The only people you could trust not to start anything with you were those you were friends with or those of your kin.
This would suggest to me that for prejudices to form, you'd need two of two things. The first is to have differences, people of different races in one community. The second is for negative experiences within the community, to create a negative frame of reference in response to future interactions within the community - creating the first pre-judgements. And the mechanism for the former? Biological. The catalyst for the latter? Socio-economic. It is no wonder that amongst white Americans the stereotype for the PC Socjuc is a wealthy student who is owns many material objects of expensive brands whilst the racist is a country yokel without wits or dollar. The former has only ever lived in a resource-abundant society of tolerance, trust and safety, the latter has only ever lived off blackland dirt being prejudiced, violent and paranoid. Lots of people look into whether racism precedes poverty, but rarely the other way around. Likewise, there is always that latent capacity for prejudice that need only a poor strata of society to effect itself in full force. Pardon the Godwin, but Germany was a poor nation, and then it birthed Nazism.

So I don't think stereotypes will ever pass. Instead, teach that you shouldn't preemptively judge based on a stereotype. A common stereotype is that white men are more educated than black men. And its true there were more white men at my engineering school, but you wouldn't have guessed that after speaking to any of the white and black men at my old college. Teaching people that stereotypes are inherently harmful is morally wrong and false. What about the stereotype about serial killers usually being white men? Its true. What is wrong is assuming someone is a serial killer because they fit the stereotype.

The latter example about serial killers usually being white men is especially interesting to me. Firstly because since the 90's onwards in the USA majority of serial killers have been black. Stereotypes often persist long after their accuracy has perished, and are highly affected by modern mass media. It is always a source of amusement to me when the PC media throws around 'youths' with reckless abandon; Swedes even went as far as whiten pixelated faces of attackers. In America the greatest cause for this wonky media representation is not based on who the killer was, but it's like with the death penalty - it lies therein with who the victim was. Beautiful white women who get killed feature most prominently in all news coverage, and by consequence since most serial killers kill within their race they are featured most prominently, creating this stereotype. Secondly, it is hard to grasp the message that stereotypes are not inherently bad if they are true, if you would then contradict such a statement immediately afterwards saying that holding people who conform to the stereotype up as part of the stereotype is wrong. How do you hold onto stereotypes that are 'true,' whilst damning it as immoral? This is not a rhetorical question by the way, I would genuinely like to know.

Also, forcing people to marry inter-racially and "crossbreed" is very similar to eugenics. Would you rather all of the racists be forced to marry women they hate, beat them, hate their children, and screw them up for a few generations, just because of the misguided belief that exterminating diversity can be accomplished, and will result in a better world?

Racism is not specific to men, one thing we should be certain of at any rate is mankind's universal capacity for prejudice. And that's not even bringing up how it isn't just similar to eugenics, it is the UN definition of genocide.

TL;DR, people see patterns naturally, and its important. Instead, teach people how to be more human, and understand when not to assume based on a pattern they believe is true, and to challenge the patterns. Man is an animal, and civilization is in many ways about the transcendence from animal behavior. Our natural ability to see and reinforce patterns is an animal trait, and important. Understand when its not the answer, like understanding when violence is not the answer. Like violence, sometimes trusting the pattern is a good thing.

Sounds reasonable enough. But this is also a colossal undertaking, and one whose outcome I am not sure is worth the means taken to get there. Perhaps this is because I don't particularly care about social justice and am far more concerned by the continual decay of individuality, responsibility and liberty in the name of homogenous nihilism; but that is just my own personal prejudice.


*EDIT
On reflection, I think it would be wrong to consider prejudices as innate or learned; the two do not have to be exclusive. It could be innate and learned; I recall the friction between Jews and Arabs both from Jerusalem in London not getting along particularly well, and racist banter between Sephardi and Ashenkanzi Jews who to an outsider looked pretty much alike.

[penguinofhonor]

The richest parts of my city are definitely the most racist ones. Black people there are much more likely to get pulled over, and there are neighborhoods that basically still don't allow black people to live there. I mean, you can technically buy a house there if you're black. You'll just get threats and cold calls, swastikas drawn on your house, and everyone will assume the only way "someone like you" could afford such a nice house is by dealing drugs.

[BoredVirulence]

I cut up the quote's a bit, and trimmed some of the extraneous material. Refer to the sources for the original.

Racism will always exist...

That's a nice anecdote, but that's also assuming that much more of human nature is learned and not innate...

You're focusing on the anecdote too much. If you extend it further through life, assume his teacher didn't go out of his way to label them, they would have learned it from somewhere. Even if no one bothered explaining it through his entire life, he would have noticed differences. He could have developed into a racist. But they would have at least been stereotypes of his own making, stereotypes that have some merit on today's society. Too many stereotypes exist because society never let them go and taught them to the next generation. My theory isn't an all encompassing way to end racism in a few years or a single generation. Simply that it will diminish naturally, and by teaching your kids some simple rules to live by, you can reduce it more than its natural decay. I do think a problem is that we go out of our way to teach others what racism is, even if its to talk about how its bad, you still teach them what it is and they choose for themselves if your right about it being bad. That, to me, means that during your more uncertain transitional period, teenage years, you're my inclined to agree with those views you were told were bad.

So I don't think stereotypes will ever pass...

The latter example about serial killers usually being white men is especially interesting to me. Firstly because since the 90's onwards in the USA majority of serial killers have been black...

I actually didn't know that, thanks. My point was that there is truth to at least some stereotypes, and that stereotypes aren't necessarily harmful, its how they are applied. Lets just assume that 90% of all serial killers are white men. In this hypothetical world that's a truth. Believing that an uncaught serial killer is white isn't wrong, assuming someone is a serial killer because they are white, or that a suspect can't be the serial killer because they are not white is an improper use of the stereotype. In fact, maybe using and applying the stereotype is false. Walking down a dark ally with a white guy following you and being afraid wouldn't be wrong, acting preemptively like macing, tazing, or shooting him unprovoked is.

Also, forcing people to marry inter-racially and "crossbreed" is very similar to eugenics...

Racism is not specific to men, one thing we should be certain of at any rate is mankind's universal capacity for prejudice. And that's not even bringing up how it isn't just similar to eugenics, it is the UN definition of genocide.

I just didn't want to linger too long here, my posts tend to be giant walls of ranting text as it is. I should come with a spoiler tag, personally. We agree, and my description isn't as correct as possible (Racism is not specific to men), but its certainly not incorrect.

TL;DR, people see patterns naturally, and its important. Instead, teach people how to be more human, and understand when not to assume based on a pattern they believe is true, and to challenge the patterns. Man is an animal, and civilization is in many ways about the transcendence from animal behavior. Our natural ability to see and reinforce patterns is an animal trait, and important. Understand when its not the answer, like understanding when violence is not the answer. Like violence, sometimes trusting the pattern is a good thing.

Sounds reasonable enough. But this is also a colossal undertaking, and one whose outcome I am not sure is worth the means taken to get there. Perhaps this is because I don't particularly care about social justice and am far more concerned by the continual decay of individuality, responsibility and liberty in the name of homogenous nihilism; but that is just my own personal prejudice.

I generally agree with you. I don't propose a giant campaign to bring world peace, love, and joy to all through a single definition of humanity. I propose parents do their job of making their children into decent human beings, and secretly hope people learn to think. I don't really worry about racism because I don't see it in its current incarnation as permanent. Prejudice and stereotypes will always exist, its human nature, but the current incarnation is, I think, a peak that will slowly fall. I think that over time more civilized cultures will learn to civilize their prejudice too.

*EDIT
On reflection, I think it would be wrong to consider prejudices as innate or learned; the two do not have to be exclusive. It could be innate and learned; I recall the friction between Jews and Arabs both from Jerusalem in London not getting along particularly well, and racist banter between Sephardi and Ashenkanzi Jews who to an outsider looked pretty much alike.

I agree, its both. Its innate in the sense of pattern recognition. Your brain will form a pattern filled with half truths, use those to justify whatever pattern it is, and you will always have it with you. The nearby red light or "blacks-drive-slower" patterns are exactly that. Teaching kids that they will experience racism in X form, or that they shouldn't practice racism in Y form is learned, and perpetuates them.  If you can teach people those quirks in pattern recognition, and teach people the mortality of those patterns, you've done a great deal to make your children decent human beings. Stereotypes are inherently evil, to me, is the same argument as guns are inherently evil. Tell that to the French freedom fighters who fought Nazi occupation with the weapons allied support gave them.

[BoredVirulence]

The richest parts of my city are definitely the most racist ones. Black people there are much more likely to get pulled over, and there are neighborhoods that basically still don't allow black people to live there. I mean, you can technically buy a house there if you're black. You'll just get threats and cold calls, swastikas drawn on your house, and everyone will assume the only way "someone like you" could afford such a nice house is by dealing drugs.

Where I live, we only assume people are drug dealers when they drive cars that cost $80,000+ when their home only costs $150,000, and have patio furniture on their roof. But I also live in the meth capital of the south, and arguably the world. But Atlanta has a lot of rich blacks, and the population is drawn too even for it to be any other way. Of course, I'm sure older people feel differently, but that's my theory.

I don't know, maybe its just where I grew up (northern most suburb of Atlanta, GA. [The megacity of the south]).

It definitely, definitely was. The suburbs in general (excepting the occasional gated community, anyway) trend towards being some of the less overtly racist areas in the states, especially around some the larger cities (like Atlanta, heh), iirc. You want to see some shit, you go into the inner city or out into the sticks.

Georgia in particular... I've talked to people (and note the plural -- this has happened to more than one person, coming from different places) that's seen tiny race riots happen in the last ten, twenty years (probably less -- these were college students talking about highschool years) in parts of south georgia. Few dozen kids breaking out into a race vs race brawl in the middle of a school, stuff like that. Talked to folks that come from areas in that state where it's still damned dangerous for a person to just walk through certain parts of the places they lived, due entirely to their skin color. Parts of the state are doing alright, but a lot of it is still experiencing racial tensions and racism like goddamn.

I'm going to have to disagree. I'm not worried too much about riots because Atlanta is run not by rich white people, but rich black people. Rural Georgia may have its problems, but Atlanta is doing a good job of equalizing its political power racially.

Now I could see some rioting because the tension is there because of the rest of the country and the media, but its more of a bubble than a real problem. People perceive the problem as more serious than it is, here at least. There isn't much to riot about, the police force is largely black, and so are the policy makers. Classism may be a real problem, the occasional police abuse, but its not because of a racial divide, not a real one, not here. There are parts of Atlanta that are dangerous to be in period, not because of skin color.

Also, I do hail from a suburb. But it's not a rich one. Its the meth capital of the south. Seriously, our Walmart is renowned for its methlabs in the parking lot, and used needles in the clothing. We have some rich people, but we've got plenty of poor and middle class. I also went to the poor high school if that counts. Honestly, I look back and expect there should have been more issues than there were.

But I'd like to add a big disclaimer, this is all based on experience in the Atlanta area. I do get the feeling its not universally this way. But if people try and tell you its awful here, they're most certainly being dramatic.


I think I'm gonna stop commenting. My opinions are becoming too lengthy for it to be healthy. At least stop commenting on the state of racism in the area.

[Frumple]

... dramatic, or their experiences are different from yours. I'm actually about five hours out from atlanta, in north florida, within an hour's drive of the border, and have family in Savannah. The folks I was talking to grew up in georgia, and the descriptions of such came from both sides of the race divide and with pretty much the utmost seriousness. There was no chain yanking going on, there's just parts of GA that's racist as the buggery. Same with mots of the tri-state area, really, the south in general, and... really, the US as a whole. There's a lot of places in this country that are damned nasty as such things go. Plenty of places that's not, sure, but there's still pretty serious problems (even discounting official buggerance, like we've been seeing from the police for the... well, last more or less ever.) in a lot of areas.

Though yeah, I will note that I've had atlanta described to me by folks that lived in several different parts of georgia as, roughly paraphrased, "The only thing worth a damn in this state." People tend to note its problems, but overall be pretty positive about that city in particular. The rest of the state is by and large a shithole.

[Zangi]

Not without some exterior motivation that would unite humanity.  That exterior motivation and that unity must last for a few generations.

No, unless aliums.

[wierd]

Short of an outright extraterrestrial invasion, humans will always want to feel and act superior to other humans, and will make excuses to make that behavior "OK" (for them).

In the event of ET invasion, humanity would band together to kill the invaders, but would splinter apart again shortly afterward.

Humans are predictable, imbecilic, and recalcitrant. it's defeatist, but barring a radical change in how humans are wired, that's how it will always be.

[Loud Whispers]

On the anecdote and formation of stereotypes, I think we're describing the same thing there.

I do think a problem is that we go out of our way to teach others what racism is, even if its to talk about how its bad, you still teach them what it is and they choose for themselves if your right about it being bad. That, to me, means that during your more uncertain transitional period, teenage years, you're my inclined to agree with those views you were told were bad.

Hitting the nail somewhat on the head but I don't think kids need to know what racism is to be racist any less one would need to know what theft is to steal.

My point was that there is truth to at least some stereotypes, and that stereotypes aren't necessarily harmful, its how they are applied. Lets just assume that 90% of all serial killers are white men. In this hypothetical world that's a truth. Believing that an uncaught serial killer is white isn't wrong, assuming someone is a serial killer because they are white, or that a suspect can't be the serial killer because they are not white is an improper use of the stereotype. In fact, maybe using and applying the stereotype is false. Walking down a dark ally with a white guy following you and being afraid wouldn't be wrong, acting preemptively like macing, tazing, or shooting him unprovoked is.

But then you run the risk of entering the grey grounds of racial profiling, where you look for an uncaught criminal on the basis that the true stereotype fits a specific race, and the odds are the criminal fits the stereotype too - but this is unfair on the race as a whole, because the stereotype will most likely apply outside of criminal associations. As for the latter about taking action on prejudice, is it not the scale or the response that is the issue and not the response itself? I recall earlier on in another discussion surrounding prejudice where someone remarked, would it be fair to cross the road as a woman seeing a man all alone at night, because most attackers in assaults are men? To which I posited, having had that done to me many a time (despite me being harmless - to fit the stereotype is enough), as it affects no one and reduces the risk of harm to the self, is perfectly fine. To mace a man in that situation would be unfair, yes, that is because the response was far out of proportion to the perceived threat, that had not been confirmed as one. Prejudices are useful in such specific circumstances where personal safety are concerned, to go to the extreme where you have rather silly persons refusing to cross the road because they'd much rather prove they are unprejudiced only to get mugged is jut that - silly. This is a complicated issue to say the least, but in such times usually the easiest way is just to point out that most things are good in moderation, and harmful in either extreme.

TL;DR, people see patterns naturally, and its important. Instead, teach people how to be more human, and understand when not to assume based on a pattern they believe is true, and to challenge the patterns.

Trying to teach people how to think will fail outside of a dogmatic philosophy or religion, and the resurgence of fedora tipping should stand testament to how even the strongest dogmas are not immune to doubts. I see one of three ways to end racism. The first is to have no differences, via Bohanda bland bonanza where you eliminate race altogether, or just go the route of racial homogeneity like the Han or Nippons. The second is to have mutual respect between the races and cultures, the Europeans do this all right to historically close neighbours and the massive Indian ethno-cultural fabric is a testament to how this it can't be done, how it is done, and what happens when it is done. The third would be to try and eliminate racial boundaries altogether, playing more to similarities than differences, essentially redefining old races under one larger one. Similar to the first, but you haven't actually destroyed any racial groups, you've just convinced everyone else that their foreigners are family.

Man is an animal, and civilization is in many ways about the transcendence from animal behavior.

We are defined by our biology, but it is in human nature to defy it!

Hopefully in ways that aren't nature's abominations. Resurrecting severed dogs' heads is awesome, and fell.

I generally agree with you. I don't propose a giant campaign to bring world peace, love, and joy to all through a single definition of humanity. I propose parents do their job of making their children into decent human beings, and secretly hope people learn to think.

If everyone was a decent person racism wouldn't be an issue, as irregardless of people ascribing traits to races their only response would be to treat them decently as they act. Humankind is  weighted equal parts arsehole as it is with heart.

Teaching kids that they will experience racism in X form, or that they shouldn't practice racism in Y form is learned, and perpetuates them.  If you can teach people those quirks in pattern recognition, and teach people the mortality of those patterns, you've done a great deal to make your children decent human beings. Stereotypes are inherently evil, to me, is the same argument as guns are inherently evil. Tell that to the French freedom fighters who fought Nazi occupation with the weapons allied support gave them.

>Implying the French aren't evil
Personally I'd go with teaching mutual respect, though the whole tricking people into thinking they're one race is also hilarious and beneficial.

[penguinofhonor]

Short of an outright extraterrestrial invasion, humans will always want to feel and act superior to other humans, and will make excuses to make that behavior "OK" (for them).

In the event of ET invasion, humanity would band together to kill the invaders, but would splinter apart again shortly afterward.

Okay, this might sound crazy, but what if we tried to unite humanity by simulating an alien attack on a major population center?

[Loud Whispers]

Short of an outright extraterrestrial invasion, humans will always want to feel and act superior to other humans, and will make excuses to make that behavior "OK" (for them).

In the event of ET invasion, humanity would band together to kill the invaders, but would splinter apart again shortly afterward.

Okay, this might sound crazy, but what if we tried to unite humanity by simulating an alien attack on a major population center?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8kQImYo3Ww

[penguinofhonor]

What the fuck, why is that not a giant weird alien?

[Loud Whispers]

What the fuck, why is that not a giant weird alien?

The original plotline of watchmen has a giant simulated alien attack on every major populated urban city center in order to bring an end to the cold war and unite all of humanity against the alien external threat

The movie adaption thought this was a bit silly and just did blue lightning balls instead