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[penguinofhonor]

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[Neonivek]

Objectively it is two widely inconsistent characters.

With one who tends to have rather under-exaggerated depictions in spite them often throwing numbers at you that makes it seem like they could destroy the solar system if they got hungover.

With the other who has incredibly over-exaggerated depictions where they throw ridiculously inane numbers at you that makes them seem MUCH weaker then they really are.

Meaning that to understand both requires two different techniques.

With Superman, you have to throw out what you see and understand that those numbers are what is actually occurring.

With Goku, you have to throw out those numbers and understand that what you see on screen is what is actually occurring. (Akira Toriyama doesn't understand math)

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So when they clash people tend to use one... or the other technique for both.

And if you use the numbers Goku gets... He is much weaker than Superman.

and if you use the depiction that Superman gets... He is USUALLY much weaker then Goku.

[Radio Controlled]

Not enough objective discussion in the Goku vs Superman thread? Who could have guessed?

In retrospect, asking whether the antagonists of the franchises could beat each other might've been better to get people out of the fanboyism-mindset.

At that point you might as well just switch topics to something, you know, real. Comparing animes and comic books is literally just a fanboyism contest.

I've seen a forum before where they often did these 'would x win against y' kinds of discussions, and they seemed more objective. Maybe the fact they often did that though might've helped create a sort of 'unwrittten rules' that facilitated more constructive arguing.

With Superman, you have to throw out what you see and understand that those numbers are what is actually occurring.

With Goku, you have to throw out those numbers and understand that what you see on screen is what is actually occurring. (Akira Toriyama doesn't understand math)

Wouldn't it be more fair to only consider what we actually see on screen for both?

[Neonivek]

Wouldn't it be more fair to only consider what we actually see on screen for both?

Not really, it is different narrative styles and a lot of the time it is just that they want to go with a different aestetic.

They don't want to show Superman fighting an opponent like it was a game of pinball. So the super megaton punches just knock back his opponent a few meters.

This is just assuming that the depictions are consistant... Which for Superman is WIDELY varying and while Goku has some inconsistencies and odd weaknesses but is otherwise the same.

To me most stories Superman is weaker then current Goku. Yet when you are using a story where Superman has the full breadth of his abilities it swings widely in his favor. Goku's attacks are just much more flashy but in the end you are still talking about attacks in the hundreds or millions of megatons of force, against someone who tosses around octillions of Megatons.

I prefer Superman in the lower reaches of his strength (not too low)... but still super enough that we wouldn't stand a chance if he turned on us.

But the general rule of thumb is that Wonder Woman has the strength that she could hold the earth (Strength of the Earth), and Superman is a bit stronger then that, at all times... and when he seems weaker it is because he is being gentle... and that his invulnerability seems to be connected to how much he "tries". >_<

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Now if you want HORROR... then you want Sonic Continuity...

Where the characters routinely travel faster than the speed of light...

But I always justified it that light moves much slower in the sonic universe (because moving the speed of light doesn't seem to... help too much)

[Andres]

Hence why I was just not going to be fair to Goku one bit. Since by all means there is no evidence to suggest Goku can survive lava (since he can't... even Broli had to protect himself from it somehow).

NEXT PERSON WHO TALKS ABOUT LAVA GETS LOCKED FROM THE THREAD. Let's just assume that scene with Frieza was purely for comedy and that Broly never happened. That reminds me of a rule I was gonna write...

No non-canon sources.

Goku is not stupid in the area where it counts. He learned how to do the Kamehameha after watching it once. Learning Kamehameha wave took Master Roshi 50 years.

This isn't really related to the competition but I just wanted to say that I think Goku's trick there is actually a kind of Saiyan ability. The one time said "ability" gets shown off is when Vegeta cuts off Gohan's tail with the Destructo Disc, having seen the technique only once, just like Goku with the Kamehameha.

In the recent movie, Goku has also absorbed one attack directed at him fully, so that's a non-feat from Superman.

He absorbed the Ki likely. But do you have a link?

Wouldn't that be like saying "he didn't absorb the blast of a nuclear explosion - he just absorbed the energy produced by the blast"?
EDIT: It could also mean the reverse, but it still means the same thing, really.

I dunno... Bardock survived it easily enough.

In fact Bardock wasn't even all that hurt by it all things considered and he wasn't even Super Saiyan.

But on a more serious note... Yeah he could block it... But that technique doesn't blow up planets it is made to take out and interfere with the core of a planet causing it to self-destruct. It is one of the two techniques in the show that are specifically designed to take down planets. The two being Deathball (Frieza's move) and the Garlic Gun.

I'm calling Episode of Bardock non-canon. Bardock Special can stay, though. If there's a reason why EoB should be treated as canon (Word of God, for example) then please tell me.

The reason he wasn't hurt is because he came back to life and travelled through time....somehow.

Three things...no four...no FIVE. One: it's called the Death Ball - two words (nitpicky but whatever). Two: The Death Ball and the Supernova are two different techniques, Supernova being the more powerful of the two and the one that blew up Vegeta. Three: This is just my own opinion so take it as you will. Supernova tunnels down into the planet's core and explodes, destroying the planet in a very simple way. The attack he used to destroy Vegeta (which isn't Death Ball, as it turns out, and is actually a different technique called 'Destroy the Planet!', funnily enough) works differently and actually interacts with the core, leading to an explosion later on but requiring less energy to do so (though with enough energy put into the attack it would destroy the planet more-or-less instantly). Four: It's called the Gallick Gun. Five: The Gallick Gun isn't made specifically to blow up planets any more than the Kamehameha is - it just serves as a convenient tool for doing so, again just like the Kamehameha.

[Neonivek]

No, I mean the Gallick gun really is... specifically designed to destroy planets. It can be used as an attack indeed... but its ability to destroy planets belies how powerful it is. That is always how it is handled.

It isn't such a powerful attack that it destroys planets, it is an attack that destroys planets in spite of its strength.

Then again the Spirit Bomb is said to be able to "Destroy the earth" but as we can clearly see... it REALLY can't.

Final Flash, the much more powerful attack... isn't even capable of blowing up the earth.

No non-canon sources.

Define

Canon to what?

[NullForceOmega]

I'd have to wager Andres means 'If Akira Toriyama didn't write it.'

[Sergarr]

Thing is, then we would have to decide what's canon for Superman. And that;s impossible because there are many many different Supermans floating around.

[Neonivek]

I'd have to wager Andres means 'If Akira Toriyama didn't write it.'

Well if that definition is being used... then we would have to ignore the anime altogether.

And instead use the Manga exclusively... and lets just say, certain things do not happen.

I prefer to use the Anime's continuity personally...

[NullForceOmega]

Since, apart from a few translation errors and a very few filler episodes, the anime DB/Z follows Akira's work pretty much exactly, I don't know why that would be a problem.

[Neonivek]

Since, apart from a few translation errors and a very few filler episodes, the anime DB/Z follows Akira's work pretty much exactly, I don't know why that would be a problem.

Except for almost all of the Buu arc... including Buu using the Spirit Bomb.

I never read the Manga, so I can't participate anymore.

[Radio Controlled]

Maybe while they are duking it out, too evenly matched to get a quick conclusion, the rest of the cast go on a mad dash to find the dragonballs.

[Neonivek]

Though fine if you want Canonical DBZ from the Manga

We just have to use the gravity chambers.

500 times gravity multiplied by Goku's weight, multiplied by 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 (because Goku never got past SSJ3 in the manga)

And we get 35 million kg of pressure is all Goku can withstand... evenly distributed across his body. (might have to double it... I assumed 75kg, but Goku is definitely heavier then a normal person)

JLA Superman as I said essentially withstood a force of many times greater than that.

But I got a number here, Death of Superman it was said he could lift 800,000 tons (and that is ancient)

725747792kg (726 million kg)... Superman can bench press more then 10 times what Goku can withstand physically.

Mind you I always just figured it Superman is STRONGER physically then Goku. Now Speed however... is... really iffy.

We know Superman can move several times the speed of light and is faster than the flash (a feat I wish wasn't true... because Superman it is the Flashes ONLY thing).

But Goku has no fixed speed and as we all know... Though it has always been slower than the speed of light.

[NullForceOmega]

I'm still not arguing for or against either character, but to the best of my recollection no fixed value is ever given for the forces Goku trained under within the hyperbolic time chamber.  So I am unsure whether or not the 500g limit is the highest Goku can withstand.

Akira tends to play very fast and loose with reality in his works.

[Neonivek]

Indeed, but for this conversation we have to do that silliness.

Because otherwise it is just going to boil down to "Who is the flashiest and can throw 'can destroy the earth' more".

Besides with "But Goku should be stronger right? we see him do more later" wouldn't fly with Superman. So we have to consider them on even ground in terms of what arguments you can put against the other. We already had Superman Trawl the earth but because the Green Lantern created a stationary Harness for Superman, we aren't counting it for some reason.

As for the Hyperbolic Time chamber... It likely didn't give him any Gs since if it gave him 10 Gs as a kid the chamber would have killed kid Goku. The real point of the Chamber, beyond being rather intense in terms of conditions, is that you get a year of training done in a day.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zu-beJIfDDc/SfoACS32JlI/AAAAAAAAAEU/bp1rB-vNHE4/s320/superman58.png

Superman Carrying a Planet... but that looks like Silver Age

And if there is one thing I DO NOT want to do is use Silver Age Superman in this >_<

It is actually hard to Image search because you can get PLENTY of pictures of Superman lifting planets, asteroids, drilling holes in planets, taking world shattering attacks, being hit with super novas, forces the equivilant of several super novas (Superman Versus the Elite where he was hit with the force of 100 super novas... Though part of me always wondered if that was a in character exaggeration), and all that... but an Image never tells you the comic it is from.