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[Tea]

I accidentally missed Origami's post that was above 4maskwolf's initial stuff, so I'll be replying to that now. I still think it is going to be hard to read the ICs since they are mainly replying to things as teachers rather than players, and as scum can use that instead of posting actual content, but maybe that will change as the game progresses.

My "filler questions" were just trying to get some conversation going.

What I mean by 'filler' is that I think that the content of Dorf's questions were more effective in actually getting conversation started rather than just asking stuff for the sake of it, but I can buy that you just didn't put a lot of thought into it, esp. since this was the first post in the thread.

And asking someone what role they like isn't really rolefishing.

I think it is because it gets people talking about differences in how they will play depending on what town role they have, which seems to help scum find power roles without providing enough benefit to the town to offset that, in this setup. I have often used knowledge of whether people prefer playing as a particular alignment to help me read them though, so I understand the value of that more.

Sometimes people do ask. Out of curiosity, what is your favorite alignment?

I am always quite relieved to get a town role and tend to enjoy the process of figuring out the game more than trying to prevent other people from doing so, but I think as the game goes on either alignment can end up being equally frustrating and anxiety-inducing, just in different ways.

Tea: in bringing up that strategy, did it occur to you that there is only a 2/3 chance that we have a cop?  Does that change your mind about the plan?  What should the cop do if we do follow that plan and they get roleblocked by the jailkeeper one night?

Yes, it did. In the hypothetical scenario of there not being a cop, it would actually be funny if the scum were overanalyzing it and made a suboptimal nightkill based on who is more likely to be a role that isn't in the setup. I hadn't thought through the jailkeeper thing though - that complicates things to the point that I'm not sure it's a good idea.

Advice in general

Is there a reason you didn't respond to any of the comments I made about your posts?

Am I posting too much? I don't want to make the thread annoying for people to read but I am eager to get to the point where people stop saying there's not much to go on.

[Tea]

I have never been scum with anyone in this group, so I don't have any preferences right now. I would probably pick someone with experience.

I didn't ask what type of person or what class of person you'd pick, OSG.

Sorry about that.

In this game, the person I have played the most with is actually roo, and I definitely think being mafia together would be !!fun!! even if it won't work out that well. I also like 4mask's gameplay, so that is also who i'd pick.

I'd pick 4mask if I was playing to win, and roo if I was playing to have fun, which I am at this moment.

Your follow-up on this question seems both more conciliatory and more relaxed, which...is a thing that I don't know how to parse.

[4maskwolf]

Tea: you're not annoying people with your posting rate, OSG and I can do far more on weekends when we don't have school (I love high school and little homework).


One last thing for now: remember that while the IC's are by design players with more experience than everyone else in the game, we are neither infalliable nor much "better" at the game than you all are.  In a game of deception such as this one, experience is most valuable for its insights into other players, and none of you have been around for long enough for me to get a good read on any of you.

Also remember that while the scumtells listed in the OP are (somewhat, I have a bone to pick with a few of them) good guidelines, the chaos of the game is likely to yield up more obscure scumtells that you might pick up on but aren't labelled.  If you see something that you find suspicious, pursue it, but don't allow that pursuit to blind you to everyone else around you.


Now that I've got most of my ICing out of the way for now, I can get down to serious business.

Persus13: You didn't actually comment on Tea's idea, which is that everyone claims a (fake or real) cop result every day so that if the cop is ever nightkilled or lynched, their results will be immediately made public knowledge.  I specifically asked in the post three above yours what everyone thought of it.

Everyone: From your own personal experience from various places and using your own judgement, how balanced do you believe this game to be?  Why do you say that?

[origamiscienceguy]

Everyone: From your own personal experience from various places and using your own judgement, how balanced do you believe this game to be?  Why do you say that?

Every beginner game I have played has been an overwhelming scum victory. The meta seems to have adapted to make it lean more in scum favor in my opinion.

[roo]

Perseus I am convinced I was day killed because I was disliked actually. It affirmed certain truths. Like people like things the way they like them. I'd rather not talk about it if that's okay with you. Doesn't serve any actual purpose this game except to remind people how I play, which I am trying to change. I'm fine answering questions but curiosities seem to hold up the game.

[roo]

FTR tho am not in favor of the aforementioned cop play. It does not make any sense here. unless tea is crumbling cop should probably keep that to myself. Thoughts on this anyone?

I also like origami as town this game gut mostly. I'm sure he'll make a post that screams town I'll quote it and show it to all.

unvote

@Tea 4mask is only commenting on theory. I think it is fine and actually like the posts; it is early game after all (and no one else is posting). 4mask is still a player and will take stances on other players. you can ignore the ic stuff as actually being in, this, game related.  I would suggest becoming revolted if he accuses someone of gambiting and then explains in IC voice what gambiting is, but 4mask I am sure would never bend rules like that. I suggest stop being so paranoid at the ic content he wasn't lying when he said its advise. Also the paranoia indicates town. Unless I am corrected about tea being paranoid by tea. 

[roo]

Everyone: From your own personal experience from various places and using your own judgement, how balanced do you believe this game to be?  Why do you say that?

Every beginner game I have played has been an overwhelming scum victory. The meta seems to have adapted to make it lean more in scum favor in my opinion.

I am not entirely convinced it is that. The rqs is scum favored and the inability of some to post and apathy of others gets town in trouble a lot. Meta is just how people play the game. I do think some are too forgiving or not paranoid enough. And some don't take this seriously. Which incidentally I have started doing. being aggressive and competitive is definitely not the meta. If you have a problem with the mets then you by extension have a problem with the people playing; What do you wanna see change?
And if you had to lean a certain way gun to your head on 4mask what would it be?

[Tea]

I need to sleep, so here's some quick responses to questions. I'll try to post actual opinions on players tomorrow. Hopefully we get more posts tomorrow as deciding on a lynch by mid-Friday feels a bit ambitious.

unless tea is crumbling cop should probably keep that to myself. Thoughts on this anyone?

Wait, what? You acknowledge that you should keep something to yourself, then post it anyway and ask for thoughts on it? <<

@Tea 4mask is only commenting on theory. I think it is fine and actually like the posts; it is early game after all (and no one else is posting). 4mask is still a player and will take stances on other players. you can ignore the ic stuff as actually being in, this, game related.  I would suggest becoming revolted if he accuses someone of gambiting and then explains in IC voice what gambiting is, but 4mask I am sure would never bend rules like that. I suggest stop being so paranoid at the ic content he wasn't lying when he said its advise. Also the paranoia indicates town. Unless I am corrected about tea being paranoid by tea.

I mean, both 4maskwolf and Persus13's posts are "fine" in my opinion too, but I'm a bit paranoid (for lack of a better word) that that's all they'll ever come off as, since I can't get reads off of that. I'm not trying to insinuate that people would intentionally abuse their IC status but that I am unsure how balancing their role as an IC and their role in the game works. I will try to just let things play out tho.

Everyone: From your own personal experience from various places and using your own judgement, how balanced do you believe this game to be?  Why do you say that?

Well, I think having few but strong power roles can make the game harder because there's so much riding on specific players' actions. I also find that how people talk about their role, even if it's really weak but still not a plain townie, is helpful for trying to read people once claims come out. I do figure that this setup must be balanced-ish for this setting since it's not too crazy and it wouldn't have been put out as a beginner's setup otherwise, and I hope that people that think it's scumsided don't get demoralized.

[Dorsidwarf]

4mask, Tea
Apologies for not posting in direct answer to:

It didn't seem to me like origamiscienceguy was being intentionally vague in that answer as he did give information about what he would be looking for in a partner, but I would like to know why Dorsidwarf was being grumpy because that would help me understand his thought processes.

I didn't, in fact see it, because it was unbolded and started with someone else's name while I was skimming through before making my last post for the night. The reason I demanded clarity from OSG is because it's vitally important that the town not get into the habit of dodging questions or being vague, since those are effective scum-tells, especially later on, when everything's a bit more concrete. I'm satisfied with his updated answer, however.

Roo, if you think someone is breadcrumbing the PR in a game like this, it's probbably a good idea not to state that, since you open a possible PR up to the scum.

Illego, Dani: Are you having trouble posting? It's important to be active during the RVS/RQS, as otherwise concrete reads are more difficult to form. Lurking isn't a strategy for town.

[Dani]

Sorry for living on the wrong side of the world. Just checking in at the moment, will post things when I'm done reading. Feel free to direct questions about my currently unobserved behavior!

[Tiruin]

Posting to Bread.

Feel free to loaf around.

* Tiruin cheers the newbies/veterans!

Don't be social loafing, guys!
_{That's actually a thing. A real term, instead of something silly, to those curious. :v}
Punny or not.

Everyone: From your own personal experience from various places and using your own judgement, how balanced do you believe this game to be?  Why do you say that?

I restate a proverb I'd like y'all to think about.
Regardless of power (power role), regardless of team, the power of the player lies in how they communicate.
I believe the balance to lie in the hands of the players--if and unless the mechanics involve such a degree of deception and falsehood, or inhibit the norms of play so much, that technically or otherwise the game is skewed towards a team's wincon.

Bring up the topic of metaknowledge and I say its a valid way of interpretation in the Mafia context--what makes it a danger in consideration is the objective presence of both cognitive bias, and the technical aspect of memory (ie new information overrides previous information and vice versa), with pertinence towards the danger of 'rigidly' constructing an identity of this person, over relative evidence present in-game.

So yeah. Go players, go!

« Last Edit: Today at 05:59:59 am by Tiruin »
Yes I can do this.

[origamiscienceguy]

unless tea is crumbling cop should probably keep that to myself. Thoughts on this anyone?

Wait, what? You acknowledge that you should keep something to yourself, then post it anyway and ask for thoughts on it? <<

I believe roo is saying the cop should keep his information to him/herself unless he/she finds scum.

[4maskwolf]

roo: The IC voice is just for descriptions and explanations of our gameplay style, although since both you and I have brought up gambiting I may as well give the best description I have of a gambit.  But no, I wouldn't try to use the IC voice to manipulate other players into believing me, and if I do I'm a bad IC and everyone should call me on it because that is blatant power abuse.  That's why I try not to mix IC and regular voice in response to the same particular portion of text, because it can inadvertently lead to that.


A gambit is, in short, an inherently dangerous ploy used in an attempt to reap some benefit.  They generally employ obfuscation or outright lies in order to achieve the desired objective, although they are not exclusively a scum tactic as town can employ them too.  It is rather difficult to pin down EXACTLY what constitutes a gambit, since there are a lot of border cases that verge on being just dangerous regular play.  Generally, the more outrageous the ploy and the greater the risk, the more likely it is to be considered a gambit.

Now for the 4maskwolf personal opinion: in a game such as this, gambits beyond the fairly typical scum PR fakeclaiming (which is so common so as not even to be really a gambit in the sense I generally use it) are very difficult to even attempt, as without a power role it is generally difficult to obfuscate with any effectiveness.  I have attempted to gambit as a vanilla townie before, but that gambit a) crashed and burned and b) was entirely reliant upon giving off certain vibes in the thread, which is incredibly difficult to do without being so heavy-handed that it is obvious (and which I did successfully on one count in a rather heavy-handed manner and failed miserably on the other because I had to be much more subtle there).


I see Tiruin is loafing around the thread.


origamiscienceguy:  Why not let roo answer that question for himself, hmm?

[Illgeo]

Sorry, kind of late here.

Tea, Dorsidwarf, Illgeo: What's y'all's mafia experience?

I played in 2 BMs here.

Illgeo, Dani:Prior mafia experience, what was it? How confident do you feel in your alignment's chances of winning?

Not particularly good. Mafia won both of BMs I played here.

[Tea]

Who is Tiruin? Are they in this game?