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[Max™]

The fact that a wrestle doesn't commit until you move/attack/jump/advance time is how I do this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hack the lower body and spill the guts, bite them, then target them, wrestle > shake guts > attack lower body + multi > attack lower body with offhand > feed on target > hit comma, laugh at how awful it is.

Oh, use img width=650 or so and you can click them to enlarge but they don't break tables and such.

[Random_Dragon]

I've found a few more clever uses for this. owo

The inexperienced combatant falls into a common trap of taking a single-minded approach to combat. Defend, attack, one thing at a time. But being able to exploit simultaneous defense and counter-attack allows the practitioner to regain the initiative.

Urosh Otad - Wraith Hand:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In this instance, the counterattack is more psychologically damaging than physically, but it demonstrates the technique of combining defense and attack in one swift movement.

Another use of this technique is a modification of the Cavein Strike. In the classic example the practitioner takes control of weapon and shield before leaping away.

Subet Korumid Abod - Swift Cavein Strike:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In this instance, we trade a thorough disarming for affording the opponent less time to secure his weapon.

However, we also have a third use for this, in many ways a simplification of Dragonfall, not requiring a full run to build up speed, yet still being reasonably effective.

Zêvutfesh - Dreadwing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT: images spoiler'd due to hugeness.

[Magnus]

That lower one is by definition a cave-in strike I think. Grab their weapon, then jump at them.

[That Wolf]

You would have to interrupt by catching and then lock the joint I think, so it would be at least a couple steps.

Does breaking a neck kill?

Late reply: yes it can, you become paralized and suffocate because your lungs arnt getting the spinal cords signals, that is of course if the cords are severed.
It isnt fun.

I may also put in my 5cents: can we spoiler images? I have a weird OCD about it, specificly large images.
I will often look at the spoilered images if the description is interesting enough.

Now i feel like a image nazi.
Here comes the image gestapo

[Random_Dragon]

That lower one is by definition a cave-in strike I think. Grab their weapon, then jump at them.

True. Though in the example originally posted, he grabbed the enemy's weapon and shield before jumping, which would've taken at least one turn more to pull off. Though chances are he did exactly that after the SECOND grab, so I am a dummy. =w=

The first technique at least seems new.

[1:02:48 AM] Chaosvolt: This, basically. I just ported a founding Krav Maga technique to DF.
[1:09:58 AM] Kallin Argentclaw: Punching peple in the face? <_<
[1:10:58 AM | Edited 1:11:09 AM] Chaosvolt: Technically the technique here is the "simultaineous defense and counterattack" part, but "punch them in the face" is a core Krav Maga element too. o3o

EDIT: And to add yet another addition to the many uses of jumpslams...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Max™]

A shame you don't get to maintain possession in that case. "ha ha, got your leg!" *holds between fingers like the 'got your nose' joke*

[Magnus]

Max, I still can't do it. If I jump without attacking I simply get the "enemy jumps out of your flight path". And whenever I confirm a jump, I can't do anything else until the jump has landed and the enemy has gone flying.

Can anyone confirm that the Dragonfall is possible with lower speeds?

[miauw62]

Yeah, this is a dwarven technique called the Shield Wall[Not sure what that'd be in actual dwarven]. It lets you hold an infinite number of objects in one hand. Usually its used to hold a fuckton of leather shields so you get a bajillion blocks per turn. Although I once saw that technique used by an old and grizzled veteran in fort mode who'd lost a hand and a leg to hold his hammer, shield and crutch in the same hand.

Huh, I thought that was fixed.

Also, this seems to be THE adventure thread of this version, which is great.

[Random_Dragon]

Max, I still can't do it. If I jump without attacking I simply get the "enemy jumps out of your flight path". And whenever I confirm a jump, I can't do anything else until the jump has landed and the enemy has gone flying.

Can anyone confirm that the Dragonfall is possible with lower speeds?

See my lower-speed variation on the general concept above.

You also need a high enough wrestling skill, at the least. I tested it with grand master skill and it works reliably, but couldn't pull it off with no skill. Not sure what the minimum skill for reliable results is.

Also don't forget that the dodge skill of your target plays into it, unsure how high your skills have to be to beat the average bandit's dodge. o3o

[Max™]

Max, I still can't do it. If I jump without attacking I simply get the "enemy jumps out of your flight path". And whenever I confirm a jump, I can't do anything else until the jump has landed and the enemy has gone flying.

Can anyone confirm that the Dragonfall is possible with lower speeds?

Yeah, as our local chaotic firelizard mentioned you gotta be able to beat their dodge with wrestling or reaction (possibly observer skill related) with your speed... I suppose you could use stealth from outside their sight cone, but that might count as being different enough to be a separate thing since you're using your brain+sneaking rather than just barreling up at someone like a little steel freight train.

[Random_Dragon]

Exactly as Max put it, though I'm unsure how the AI uses the observer skill. It'll definitely come into play if you use stealth, but...

Anyone got any !!SCIENCE!! on whether the observer skill affects the AI's ability to avoid attacks?

[Broseph Stalin]

I'm currently consolidating the techniques and principles of Kisat Dur but I'm also a sleepy sleepy boy so please be patient.

[Random_Dragon]

I'm currently consolidating the techniques and principles of Kisat Dur but I'm also a sleepy sleepy boy so please be patient.

Broseph Stalin cancels kick elven ass: interrupted by sleep.

Is fine. owo

[That Wolf]

quote author=Broseph Stalin link=topic=148015.msg6096078#msg6096078 date=1426188383]
I'm currently consolidating the techniques and principles of Kisat Dur but I'm also a sleepy sleepy boy so please be patient.
[/quote]
I have an adaptation of this syle that I kinda didnt want to share because i feared its power and if it was even possible to use.
I shall share.
MINECARTS: yes attempt a cave in while riding a minecart into another enemy.
I was going to try a martial arts style based on use of minecarts. Perhaps lava filled minecarts for extra Armok worship

[Broseph Stalin]

The Principles of Kisat Dur
The warrior is what remains when the weapon is gone.

Unarmed combat is often ignored as a discipline of warfare. A warrior who depends on his weapon can fight no better than a man who depends on his crutch can walk. Kisat Dur is the Dwarven art of unarmed combat and it's masters are feared by even the greatest soldiers. A casual practitioner may use the techniques in conjunction with a weapon or to resolve conflicts wear drawing a weapon is undesirable. The focus of Kisat Dur is to render the enemy incapable of or uninterested in harming you. This can mean death, unconsciousness, or surrender. This is achieved by blending offense, defense, and knowledge into every move the practitioner makes.

Ikorottan (Warrior Mind)

Ikorottan is knowledge which makes the warrior more deadly without necessarily requiring a specific technique to be used. The Ikorottan school is what separates the Kisat Dur practitioner from a common warrior and gives him his deadly edge.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The 4 Points of Weakness

The Gut: A sharp blow to the stomach causes nausea breaking the concentration of the opponent. This foe will no longer fight as effectively and may spend more of the fight combatting the urge to vomit than defending against the practitioner.

The Lungs: A powerful shot to the chest may bruise the lungs even through the ribcage. The bruised lung is ineffective and the enemy gasps for air unable to summon energy for the rapid pace of combat. Should both lungs become bruised the foe is doomed to death.

The Neck: There are two ways to target the neck for assault; the throat, or the spine. To fracture the spine is to paralyze or at least incapacitate the foe, this is very likely to be fatal. When the throat is crushed, punctured, or torn the blood quickly leaves the body resulting in death. If the practitioner wishes their enemy to live, if only temporarily, they may also use the chokehold. To grab the neck and create a sort of lock around the throat deprives the enemy of oxygen. The choke can be held until the foe dies struggling or more aggressively strangled to unconsciousness or further still until death.

The Joints: Combat often ends when one party is too badly injured to continue. A strong or large fighter can reliably break joints inflicting horrible pain that typically leads to unconsciousness. Thak techniques can be applied to the thighs, shins, feet, upper arms, forearms, or hands.

Nabasuthar (Divine First)

The art of Nabasuthar is to know the enemy's decisions before they are made. A Kisat Dur master may identify the exact type of attack the enemy seeks to use the moment they make the decision but even a novice can be aware that an attack comes. A weapon makes the enemy predictable. An enemy with a weapon will rely on the weapon and when the enemy prepares an attack successfully grabbing the weapon will almost always interrupt the attack. Should the enemy have a shield they will next attempt to use the shield. With this knowledge the Sodel Ar can be employed effectively even by a novice.

Rashgur Nitem (Attack Vision)

    An unarmed foe is less predictable and it may be wiser to dodge than attempt an uncertain grab but this does not mean the practitioner is without knowledge. In Kisat Dur attack and defense are different perspectives on the same acts. The defensive mind looks inward and the offensive mind looks outward, when they are combined the practitioner is far more deadly. If the practitioner quickly places himself in a mental state for striking they may feel the instinct that one particular limb is easier to strike than another.

 The attacking mind sees subtle signals and recognizes the limb as weak but does not continue this thinking to realize this denotes an incoming attack. Using the knowledge of the attacking mind the practitioner may quickly employ Sodel Ar.




Zilirakith (The Eternal Wrath)

An ineffective strike dissuades novice practitioners. This need not be so. Focusing on an area of attack has compounding effect. Muscle and bone are imperfect and enough impact will cause them to yield.


Fertharnas (TheBeast-Slayer)
Kisat Dur is tailored to combat with warriors. When fighting an animal or monster Kisat Dur is at it's weakest. This does not mean the practitioner is helpless. Animals and beasts seeking a quick meal or defense of their territory will lose interest in vicious prey.

Here the practitioner has stumbled upon a bear. The Practitioner carefully creates space and when the beast steps forward launches a quick strike intended to inflict minor harm.

These injuries may be enough to discourage the foe. If this is not the case a few more strikes may prove sufficient to diminish it's capacity to fight effectively.

If the beast is truly recalcitrant it's lack of armor is a weakness that a strong practitioner may exploit.

The beast is now dead and the practitioner victorious so long as he is successful at maintaining distance.

Nonub (The Punch)

A punch is faster than a kick and only slightly weaker. Dwarves are born of the stone and can more safely sacrifice some strength than some speed. Keep the feet on the ground to allow quick movement while striking with the fists.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Zimeshabod (Phantom Strike)


The dwarf and the enemy face each other and the foe launches a strike.

The dwarf recognizes the attack early and dodges to the northwest.

The elf now faces south and the dwarf faces east.

The elf cannot effectively defend itself from this angle. In this case the attack is a punch to the nose but any sort of strike or grapple could be used to similar effect.

Stot Abodsuton (Surprise gut strike)

In this scenario the enemy has thrown an undisciplined punch which the defender has caught. This creates an opportunity

The elf is now busy trying to regain it's balance and cannot respond quickly.

A quick punch substitutes strength for speed. Since there are no bones to protect the stomach a strong punch is not necessary. The enemy is now nauseous diminishing his capacity to fight. It is no longer able to fight effectively.


Mezabod Okab (Three Strike Break)

The Stotabod Suton is followed by a quick strike to the chest. A punch does not necessarily need to break ribs to inflict injury. A lung can be bruised with a quick punch.

The enemy is now twice weakened allowing for riskier manuvers.  A wild punch is quick and powerful but leaves the fighter open afterward. Because the elf is already wounded it can't use this opportunity to it's full advantage so the risk is worth it.

A strong punch to the head has the potential to stun or knock out an opponent. This is not guaranteed but for this example it works. This technique requires a great deal of luck and should not be relied on in life or death combat.


Ostlurit (The Folded Spine)


The enemy is caught offguard with a sharp blow to the neck breaking the spine and potentially severing the spinal cord. This requires a good deal of strength and in this case the Stotabod Suton is used to create an opening for a heavy punch. The result is debilitating pain or death by asphyxiation. This technique is not recommended for nonlethal disputes.

Okab Rashgur (Break the Attack)

The practitioner recognizes an incoming stirke. Dodging or using Sodel Ar will resolve this easily but a very skilled fighter can use Rashgurokab to intimidate the enemy or avoid escalation via grappling.

The strike intercepts the the enemy's hand before the blow connects. The result is that the attack can cause no real injury.

Thak (The Lock)

The purest expression of raw power, taking an enemy's limbs and using one's muscle to manipulate them. This can take the form of throwing the enemy or twisting the limb until they are destroyed. An arm, leg, fist, or foot is grabbed and gripped tightly. This body part is then bent in the lock until it gives out, usually rendering the enemy unconscious. Mostly influenced by strength even a very skilled opponent can be defeated with a lock as long as the practitioner is sufficiently strong.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sodel Ar (Shield of Flesh)
Sodel Ar is a powerful defensive technique that turns a practitioner's hands into a functional shield. Grappling tactics are most effective against smaller opponents and this leads to the misperception that wrestling is useless when the foe is large. Sodel Ar can be employed against a foe of any size.

Here the practitioner faces a truly mighty opponent, a fully grown giant. This creature cannot be wrestled into submission and an inexperienced fighter may not attempt to grapple at all.

The practitioner sees an incoming blow that may well prove fatal. Dodging is an option but deft hands may arrest the attack.

The practitioner uses strength and speed to stop the strike before it connects. The giant is now off balance and open to attack.


Asasokab (Rapid Break)

The enemy throws a punch, the perceptive defender catches the blow, the catch is turned into a wrist lock before the enemy can react and the wrist is broken. A master of Kisat Dur can preform an Asasokab in less than a second leaving the foe scarcely aware of the technique which defeated them. This is only effective when the defender can physically overpower the attacker but the maneuver is often enough to end a fight.

Gakit Kun "Thief Cat"

Sometimes a foe is too large to simply disarm. In this case the Gakit Kun technique allows you to gain control of their weapon without the need to physically overpower them.

If the enemy fails to immediately sieze the weapon from you the Gakit Kun technique allows you to loosen their grip.

Enkos Nitem (Vision Taker)


This is a high risk manuver exclusively for when the dwarf is physically stronger than the adversary. The dwarf grabs the head and gouges both eyes. Even for a master of Kisat Dur it is difficult to do this before the enemy has the opportunity to strike back potentially to deadly effect. Even a master risks serious injury and death if a strike is allowed passed their defenses. If successful this move renders the enemy incapable of pursuing, resisting, or harming the practitioner effectively ending the fight.

Egnulnobot (Control Spurn)

The practitioner is in a vulnerable position, taken to the ground by an enemy that now stands over preventing them from rising. A skilled Kisat Dur practitioner can find opportunity even here. 

In this case the fighter has noticed an incoming strike and used the knee to trap the blow. While the enemy is off balance the practitioner uses a throw to bring them down and quickly rise to a dominant position, the fist still firmly caught. The positions are now reversed and the Kisat Dur practitioner has a hold on the enemy's hand. The hold can be released, turned into a joint lock, or simply used to prevent the enemy from getting back to their feet.

Nidostegul (Ferocious Control)

A standard throw is used on the enemy and practitioner quickly moves to their position before they land. This is easier with weaker throws as a strong throw requires the foe to be pursued. This leaves the practitioner standing over the prone and stunned enemy. From this position victory can be quickly had. If executed improperly the enemy may strike the practitioner knocking himself to the ground in the process.

Idrazoluth (Dog Combat)

The teeth are an often neglected weapon in combat. The practitioner may find their jaws effective tools in situations where other tactics may fail to impress. There are two primary objectives of biting: inflict tearing damage and blood loss without a weapon and inspire terror in the enemy.

The Asasokab could have ended this conflict as quickly as Idrazoluth but the terror it inspires in the elf to be so dismembered is unique to this style. The key to successful biting is choosing the proper target, biting off a finger, ear, or tearing off a hand is more effective than simply gnawing at the chest. Idrazoluth has the power to destroy nerves permanently debilitating an enemy. Should the opportunity present itself a practitioner may even bite at the throat ending the battle in a single stroke.

Toradadom (The Body Crush)
The practitioner jumps into their opponent using their mass as a weapon. An enemy may be staggered, wounded, or even killed by these techniques. A skilled practitioner my even use them to disarm an enemy or strip them of their armor.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aknunakith (Hawkwrath)


The technique works only on an enemy incapable of using either foot to maneuver. With the enemy in this vulnerable position the practitioner creates distance. This distance is then closed at speed.

When in range the practitioner jumps slamming into the prone enemy with both feet.

The results can be truly impressive, in this case the subject traveled 16 tiles before coming to rest.
This is considered an exhibition technique and is not practical in real world combat.

Korumid abod (Cave-in Strike)

More practical than the Aknunakith the korumid abod uses the same principles to gain sudden advantage against a smaller opponent. The key problem that the Toradadom techniques face is that even a master of Kisat Dur cannot preform the jump necessary without creating some distance. Grappling with a foe prevents the attack but by targeting weapons or clothing the practitioner can keep the foe at sufficient distance to launch the attack.


In this case the practitioner is flanked by two enemies armed with iron weapons and shields. Taking the time to disarm one foe would give the other the opportunity to close and attack.

The practitioner selects one enemy, closes with them at speed, and engages.

The practitioner now grabs the weapon and shield with the flanking enemy still trying to close. The practitioner now jumps with all their might slamming into the enemy with their body.

If done correctly the enemy is sent sprawling to the ground with their armaments now controlled by the practitioner. Rather than being flanked by two armed foes the practitioner now faces one staggered and unarmed foe and another he may engage at his leisure.

This may wound, kill, or simply stagger the enemy and put some distance between the practitioner and them. In any case this enemy is a less serious threat and the practitioner may redirect their focus to another.



Momguzumid (Dragonfall)

The practitioner charges the foe at speed and begins a traditional Korumid Abod form. However, the jump is started before grab connects and while in midair a second grab is attempted. This overload of threat sources prevents the enemy from acting efficiently and is effectively beyond evasion or blocking.

The list so far.