Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 525

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 685516 times)

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

  • Bay Watcher
  • Achievment *Fail freshman year uni*
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #315 on: January 28, 2015, 12:01:28 am »

((If the confusion was in it not being spell correctly I fixed it, if not then I would direct you in the general location of Ezeikiel chapter 28. It also explains a few other things about the devil))
E: found the right chapter
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:05:38 am by Cryxis, Prince of Doom »
Logged
Fueled by caffeine, nicotine, and a surprisingly low will to live.
Cryxis makes the best typos.

mastahcheese

  • Bay Watcher
  • Now with 20% less sanity and trans fat!
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #316 on: January 28, 2015, 12:07:07 am »

((If the confusion was in it not being spell correctly I fixed it, if not then I would direct you in the general location of Ezeikiel chapter 20~30 I think))
Ok, yeah, it was mostly the spelling that confused me.
But even with the right spelling, I'm still confused. I've never read through Ezekiel, and I don't know where a bible is. (I should probably look it up online, I'm sure there's an online bible somewhere...)

Actually, that makes me think.

OW, would you be willing to put links to online religious sources in the OP, if we find them?
That may help.
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

  • Bay Watcher
  • Achievment *Fail freshman year uni*
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #317 on: January 28, 2015, 12:08:24 am »

I wonder if Budhism has any texts?
Logged
Fueled by caffeine, nicotine, and a surprisingly low will to live.
Cryxis makes the best typos.

mastahcheese

  • Bay Watcher
  • Now with 20% less sanity and trans fat!
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #318 on: January 28, 2015, 12:18:11 am »

I wonder if Budhism has any texts?
I think it does somewhere? I haven't checked.
The only texts I've read have been Hindu ones, so it's similar, but nowhere actually the same.

Ok, so I found an online King James Bible, and read Ezekiel 28.
It...
I'm not getting that it says that Satan was the most beautiful thing god ever made, but that he's saying he was "Perfect", at least until he sinned.
Which... I'm not entirely sure how much is "perfect" by cherub standards.  It could be that all cherubs are viewed that way, who knows.

In any case, god seems like a bit of a dick in that chapter, to me.
Not only does he kick Satan out (which is rather understandable), but he lights Satan on fire from the inside, with the intent of spreading Satan's ashes before the feet of kings, so that all would know how fucking mighty God is.
I didn't read beyond chapter 28, so I'm not sure how well that went for him, but shit. Maybe it's that I'm reading it too literally, but man, I'd be bitter as hell, too, if someone wanted to do that to me.
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

  • Bay Watcher
  • Achievment *Fail freshman year uni*
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #319 on: January 28, 2015, 12:23:16 am »

If I find the verses (as I said earlier I'm going to hunt down the ones I need) god threw him out and did all that because satan wanted to be seated in god's throne type thing which ticked god off and then all that happened IIRC still need the verses
Logged
Fueled by caffeine, nicotine, and a surprisingly low will to live.
Cryxis makes the best typos.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #320 on: January 28, 2015, 12:35:19 am »

((If the confusion was in it not being spell correctly I fixed it, if not then I would direct you in the general location of Ezeikiel chapter 28. It also explains a few other things about the devil))
E: found the right chapter
That is, of course, assuming the king of tyre is satan (as well that, if it is, that what's described there is what is described elsewhere). Which seems to be a common assumption, but... it is an assumption, and there's some weird stuff going on there anyway.

I'm going to do a bit of research into the possibly wrong information I have on satan/devil.
Tell me if I'm missing something that I have said on the matter without proper biblical backing.

Satan and lucifer are the same
Satan and other angels fell from heaven
Satan is one of god's most beautiful creations
Satan hates man
Satan is a generaly evil entity

E: autocorrect is dumb
[1]Yeah, that's significantly arguable, and as mentioned earlier (check what chaoticag mentioned) there's decent grounds to say the morning star (halel, which as noted is what eventually got corrupted into Lucifer) was referring to something different than satan.

From what I recall, there's at least three or four different things that may be the entity known as the adversary (at least one of which is a straight up, non-fallen, angel [that which is termed outside of the main texts as Samael, the wrath of god]), assuming that it's an entity at all (and as others have noted in the thread, there's grounds to assume otherwise, instead being a state of mind).

And it's again worth noting for redundancy that Lucifer isn't actually a name at all -- it's a corruption of the latin translation of halel, which just means morning star (i.e. the planet Venus). Nor is Satan, which is just the anglicization of a hebrew word meaning adversary (or a corruption of shaitan, depending on how you look at it). Neither of them are actually names, heh.

[2]Somewhat questionable, yes, and the general narrative surrounding that is highly influenced by extra-biblical texts, so it's definitely something to be careful about if you're trying to stick to the bible itself. Iirc, there's something like literally one line in the bible that can even be construed as such. Maybe two.
[3]See the bit at the start of this post. And also [1], here, because there's no guarantee that everything that gets called satan nowadays is actually the same critter.
[4]There's not really any grounds for that at all, that I can recall. The Adversary is definitely depicted as acting against mankind fairly often, but YWHW being YWHW it's very much hard to say whether that's because of hate or something else, like being ordered to.
[5]Satan is a servant of god, and is of god, as are all things. It's certainly questionable whether all the biblical depictions could be called evil. Antagonistic, almost certainly, but that is one thing and evil is quite the other.

===

As for the buddhist text things, sure there are... sorta'. There's a fair amount of variation between sects, and no central holy text. But there's plenty written, and plenty worth reading even if you have no intention of converting or whathaveyou. There's nice stuff in those writings.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:39:31 am by Frumple »
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

That Wolf

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yes, that Wolf
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #321 on: January 28, 2015, 12:47:38 am »

Why would an omnipitent being that knows the future create something that would fail it by wanting to take its throne.
Not only once but many times god has created failings, if anything has failed anyone. Its god. And you cant say its a test, because if anything I would give the throne to lucifer and work behind the scenes through him. God didnt create angels with free will. They are his tools, so the 'fallen' angel are a fallen god. Is this wrong?
Seems legit.
Logged
I am not afraid of an army of Warriors led by a Child; I am afraid of an army of Children led by a Warrior.

Arcvasti

  • Bay Watcher
  • [IS_ALREADY_HERE] [FRIENDSHIPPER:HIGH]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #322 on: January 28, 2015, 12:52:02 am »

Why would an omnipitent being that knows the future create something that would fail it by wanting to take its throne?

Because creating a being which cannot disobey you is morally wrong?
Logged
If you expect to live forever then you will never be disappointed.
Spooky Signature
To fix the horrid default colour scheme, follow the below steps:
Profile> Modify Profile> Look and Layout> Current Theme> (change)> Darkling

penguinofhonor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Minister of Love
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #323 on: January 28, 2015, 12:55:30 am »

.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 10:07:35 am by penguinofhonor »
Logged

Arcvasti

  • Bay Watcher
  • [IS_ALREADY_HERE] [FRIENDSHIPPER:HIGH]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #324 on: January 28, 2015, 12:58:05 am »

None of the remaining good angels have free will or are capable of doing wrong. God clearly has no problem with that.

Source, please? You could very well be right, Biblical lore on angels/Lucy isn't my strong point. I just don't recall that being mentioned.
Logged
If you expect to live forever then you will never be disappointed.
Spooky Signature
To fix the horrid default colour scheme, follow the below steps:
Profile> Modify Profile> Look and Layout> Current Theme> (change)> Darkling

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #325 on: January 28, 2015, 01:00:55 am »

Critter's also been attributed as committing acts that are considerably more morally reprehensible than something like that, for what it's worth. Hard to beat mass infanticide, honestly. And then there's the whole egyptian king heart hardening thing the monotheism shoehorning left in showing that the early believers were rather willing to throw out any moral stance their god had on free will in exchange for striking mention of other gods from the text...

... it's, uh. Well, folks are welcome to discuss it, obviously, but I'd probably recommend steering away from the morality of the christian god or the general problem of evil thing as a whole. It's really something that could stand its own thread, I'd say. Is a subject that cooks off really easily, as well as being a very large topic on its own.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #326 on: January 28, 2015, 01:14:54 am »

Re infanticide in Egypt (unless we're talking about Herod): I thought it was the angel of death or something like that (the grim reaper, if you will) which was supposed to have performed the deed? From what I've heard of the Moses story anyway.
Logged

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #327 on: January 28, 2015, 01:25:08 am »

... would it make much of a difference? Angel of death would be a direct servant of god, under its command. And you've still got the other plagues murdering hundreds to thousands of innocents to go along with it, to say nothing of the various other atrocities the christian god either performs directly or commands.

You unfortunately can't apply a human-normal morality system to the biblical god without it coming up "horrific monster".

...

Kinda' one of the reasons I'd suggest shying away from trying, honestly. It's more interesting to consider other aspects of the faith. Less abhorrent, y'know?
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #328 on: January 28, 2015, 03:54:21 am »

What constitutes Good and Evil is the most difficult subject around Christianity, in my opinion. As Frumple said, you can't put God into human moral terms without him appearing as tremendously evil, or ignoring huge chunks of the Bible.

...

None of the remaining good angels have free will or are capable of doing wrong. God clearly has no problem with that.
Source, please? You could very well be right, Biblical lore on angels/Lucy isn't my strong point. I just don't recall that being mentioned.
In all honesty, I find it very hard to read the Bible and see that anything has autonomy under God. As demonstrated in Job, Satan/the Devil/Lucifer/whateveryouwanttocallhim has to ask permission of God before he can act. We've also discussed in previous threads about the difficulties in having both an omniscient god and free will.
God "hardens Pharaoh's heart" in Exodus, so that he'd prevent the Israelites from leaving, which is a fairly direct violation of free will. Unless you bring up that it was Ra in some translations, but then I'd think the point about Satan still applies - these guys are subservient to God. They might have rebelled, but they sure as hell (pun intended) didn't get very far.

...

OW, would you be willing to put links to online religious sources in the OP, if we find them?
Sure thing. PM it to me, though. I might miss it posted in the thread.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

UXLZ

  • Bay Watcher
  • God Eater
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #329 on: January 28, 2015, 04:05:06 am »

Quote from: OW
In all honesty, I find it very hard to read the Bible and see that anything has autonomy under God.

This has always been my biggest issue. The conflict between the existence of an Utterly Perfect entity like God and the concept of free will is, in my opinion, irreconcilable
It's always led me to believe that either free will is a lie, or God is not Utterly Perfect. God essentially makes free will impossible simply by being, ever. Even if God (somehow) retroactively removed Itself from existence free will would still be impossible.

If you take God as literally being 'human' thought then it makes a bit more sense, but even in that case...

Logged
Ahhh~ She looked into your eyes,
And saw what laid beneath,
Don't try to save yourself,
The circle is complete.
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 525