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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

One of my bible teachers (youth pastors what have you) always says something along the lines of, 'Being humans as we are, we will never comprehend God in his entirty, here on earth'

[Arx]

This has always been my biggest issue. The conflict between the existence of an Utterly Perfect entity like God and the concept of free will is, in my opinion, irreconcilable
It's always led me to believe that either free will is a lie, or God is not Utterly Perfect. God essentially makes free will impossible simply by being, ever. Even if God (somehow) retroactively removed Itself from existence free will would still be impossible.

It's impossible to distinguish between choice and the illusion of choice. I favour the theory that God is unrelated to time, and thus effectively He could set up chains of events, view each part, and adjust the chain of events to give each person their preferred choice (within reason. I still don't have a pony) in that scenario. It's the illusion of choice, but it's absolutely indistinguishable from free will and functionally the same.

Also if there is no God you don't necessarily have free will either. It's a topic that came up in one of the previous threads.

[TD1]

One of my bible teachers (youth pastors what have you) always says something along the lines of, 'Being humans as we are, we will never comprehend God in his entirty, here on earth'

And that argument holds no weight, unfortunately. Not in this context, anyway. Not being able to comprehend God is silly in my opinion. Actions speak louder than words, and we can most certainly judge God through his actions.

Any impartial judge on earth, I'm sure, would long ago have condemned God to...well, hell.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I meant we can't fully comprehend who he is or how he works because we are human.
I didn't say we couldn't see his actions

[TD1]

If you see somebody's actions, you can determine their intent.

To say that morally wrong actions are acceptable because the being that committed them is above our reproach or knowledge isn't a good argument. Even were we to be incapable of understanding his divinity, not fully, it does not give him a by. Try applying that logic to a criminal on Death Row. "We can't understand him or his motives...so he is exempt, and must not be judged by our laws.

[MonkeyHead]

My biggest problem with the "unknowable god" argument are the nature of the claims about god present in any holy text - god is clearly knowable and understandable based on the stories depicted. In addition, why would a god dictate one moral or behavioural code to its creations, then follow a blindly different one? Why would a god not expect us to behave in a manner akin to the one they themselves do?

[TD1]

"Turn the other cheek"

*Woman turns to salt*

That type of thing?

[MonkeyHead]

"Turn the other cheek"

*Woman turns to salt*

That type of thing?

Yeah, the whole "thou shalt not kill" while murdering everyone kind of thing. The double standard of "do as I say but not as I do" does not sit well with me.

[Descan]

Aye. That bit about "why give us a different morality?" And the idea that if he created us, he could have created us with the ability to understand. Everything is in his power, supposedly.

[UXLZ]

It's the illusion of choice, but it's absolutely indistinguishable from free will and functionally the same.

God could distinguish. It's perfect, remember?
It specifically says we have free will (or free will is at least considered integral to the teachings because... Whatever reason.)
This leads to the conclusions that God is

A) Lying.
B) Imperfect.
C) Wrong.
D) Two/All Of The Above(?)

Which one of these fits It?

Everything is in his power

And that's my issue with the Christian God. I cannot accept the existence of a Truly Perfect entity (at least the Christian one), bcause 'Perfection' is nebulous and the God in the bible clearly does not change Its mind or 'self'... Ever. Well, and 'other' reasons... But the fact remains that God cannot be truly perfect because I don't think It can be[/b] if that makes any sense. I'm out of time so I'll explain it later, but it works.

[TheDarkStar]

A) Lying.
B) Imperfect.
C) Wrong.
D) Two/All Of The Above(?)

Or E) Your perception of perfect is not what perfect is or is meant as.

[Orange Wizard]

It specifically says we have free will

What? Where?

Yeah, the whole "thou shalt not kill" while murdering everyone kind of thing. The double standard of "do as I say but not as I do" does not sit well with me.

So, newer translations use the word "murder" instead of "kill", and the Hebrew word is indicative of unlawful killing. Effectively, God is not opposed to his followers killing people, as long as it's lawful.
'Course, that applies to the Old Testament, where God commanded many people to be stoned to death and whatnot. New Testament has Jesus telling everyone that the old law is over (kind of) and they should love everyone.

[TD1]

The Flood.

Think of the many infant deaths. And no, it doesn't make it better that he was sorry afterwards and sent us a bow.

[Orange Wizard]

Yes, and God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in Canaan. What's the relevance?

[Leafsnail]

"We can't really understand God" seems like a huge copout to me when a major purpose of religion is supposed to be its explanatory power.  "God did everything because " isn't really much of an explanation.