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[Orange Wizard]

I believe its better to keep government as minimum as possible for a functioning society.

Such as courts, police, national defence force.

Countries that are safer (see EU, Oceania) tend to have larger governments, tighter weapon controls, and better-funded courts.

I also believe that smaller forms of government within the US do have abilities to do actions such as free schooling and what not as well as other places being less so.

Not entirely sure what you mean, but again, the countries with the "best" education systems have less regional autonomy and more standard curriculum stuff.

Yah know give people some wiggle room not force everyone into some arbitary dogma they don't agree with.

It's not dogma, it's provision. Under a reasonable welfare state you'll be provided with education, protection (physical and legal), and healthcare. With these essentials in place it's much easier for people to then pursue the things that matter most to them.

[Sprin]

Federally the government should be Lazie fair

However I do think the States are aloud to regulate buissness within their states

Now to the person above you its all well and good in thoes countries then I encourage you to move there yourself. See you have options, there are places attempting to be what you agree with, but please forgive me for not also sharing your ideology. This is the onlly country I believe in, I believe in its principles and the risks associated with it.

Seems kinda mean to force me to conform to your world view if you have supposedlly so many options while I do not.

[Powder Miner]

I'm mostly for laissez faire, with a couple caveats (aka not "hurr durr 1890s"), those of continuing to have anti-monopolist policies (monopolies crush rivals, garner government support, then crush rivals even more and the free market really doesn't stand a chance) and of not stripping every safety regulation out there away (though some of the redtapier stuff out there I'd happily get rid of).

I mean, I view policy more in the form of what actions ought to be taken and what direction we ought to go in rather than some ideal perfect form of the country to be reached (as ideal forms of the country really cannot exist and it leads to unrealistic nonsense). This means that in the matter of regulations, I'm simply for not really touching the safety regulations we already have, though I'll fully admit to being FAR from an expert on the subject.

Also, Dice, what's the point of pulling a strawman insult on everyone who is a libertarian -- and a generalizing one at that? It's not a viable argument.

[Orange Wizard]

I'm mostly for laissez faire, with a couple caveats (aka not "hurr durr 1890s"), those of continuing to have anti-monopolist policies (monopolies crush rivals, garner government support, then crush rivals even more and the free market really doesn't stand a chance) and of not stripping every safety regulation out there away (though some of the redtapier stuff out there I'd happily get rid of).

Don't forget taxes

Seems kinda mean to force me to conform to your world view if you have supposedlly so many options while I do not.

I'm not forcing you to conform to anything, and I'm not really sure what options you're talking about. I'm expressing my opinion that less regulation is not necessarily better than more.

[Willfor]

*The economy crashes*

<Businessmen> We didn't do it!
<Everyone else> But why do all these meticulous paper records say you did?
<Businessmen> Okay, maybe we did it a little.
<Everyone else> Okay, let's make some rules to make sure this doesn't happen again.

*Years pass*

<Businessmen> Government is too big, tyranny! We need freedom!
<Everyone else> Aren't you just going to do what you did to begin with and start trouble again?
<Businessmen> Why would we do that? We're the ones with the most to lose!
<Everyone else> Ugh, fine, whatever.

*Not many years pass, the economy crashes*

<Businessmen> We didn't do it!
<Everyone else> You literally did the exact same stupid thing!
<Businessmen> Yes, but it wasn't illegal, and it was super profitable! How could we not do it?
<Everyone else> You promised you wouldn't!
<Businessmen> We couldn't have, we would remember if we did.

And so it goes, forever.

[Flying Dice]

Federally the government should be Lazie fair

However I do think the States are aloud to regulate buissness within their states

Now to the person above you its all well and good in thoes countries then I encourage you to move there yourself. See you have options, there are places attempting to be what you agree with, but please forgive me for not also sharing your ideology. This is the onlly country I believe in, I believe in its principles and the risks associated with it.

Seems kinda mean to force me to conform to your world view if you have supposedlly so many options while I do not.

We tried that. We got the late 1800s. Let's not repeat that mistake again, yeah? I doubt this day and age is going to give us another Teddy Roosevelt to show the parasitic capitalists exactly where they can shove it. It's frankly even worse, now that the unions have practically become a mirror of what they were created to oppose.


I'd also note that forcing laissez-faire capitalism on people is no different than forcing any other social or economic order on them. The system should be the one which provides the fairest treatment for the whole of the citizenry, not that which egotistical teenagers, old-money economic aristocrats, greedy sociopathic businessmen, and shortsighted anarchists think will benefit them. If you want hands-off government, why don't you move to a country which embodies it? It's a cliched line, but I hear that Somalia is nice this time of year.

Incidentally, you seem to have some misconceptions regarding the principles underlying the founding of the U.S. The Founding Fathers weren't opposed to taxation, they were opposed to not being provided with the government services (most notably, representation in said government) which were supposed to accompany the obligation of taxation. Neither the Federalists nor the Democratic-Republicans favored weak government, they merely differed on the level which they believed should hold the greater balance of the nation-state's power.

[Sprin]

Seems kinda mean to force me to conform to your world view if you have supposedlly so many options while I do not.

I'm not forcing you to conform to anything, and I'm not really sure what options you're talking about. I'm expressing my opinion that less regulation is not necessarily better than more.
[/quote]

Well not personally, thats the governments job!

'd also note that forcing laissez-faire capitalism on people is no different than forcing any other social or economic order on them.

Well to be fair if what your saying is true
Laissze fair should help you guys a ton

Your telling me you know a way to increase production increase wealth and quality of life, you should be able to outproduce the world! I encourage you to do so even. Hell might even join you myself if I see results

[Powder Miner]

*The economy crashes*

<Businessmen> We didn't do it!
<Everyone else> But why do all these meticulous paper records say you did?
<Businessmen> Okay, maybe we did it a little.
<Everyone else> Okay, let's make some rules to make sure this doesn't happen again.

*Years pass*

<Businessmen> Government is too big, tyranny! We need freedom!
<Everyone else> Aren't you just going to do what you did to begin with and start trouble again?
<Businessmen> Why would we do that? We're the ones with the most to lose!
<Everyone else> Ugh, fine, whatever.

*Not many years pass, the economy crashes*

<Businessmen> We didn't do it!
<Everyone else> You literally did the exact same stupid thing!
<Businessmen> Yes, but it wasn't illegal, and it was super profitable! How could we not do it?
<Everyone else> You promised you wouldn't!
<Businessmen> We couldn't have, we would remember if we did.

And so it goes, forever.

Meanwhile, on some radio channel elsewhere, a man goes on about how the government has caused every recession. I'm sure you would object to this, yes?

It is exceedingly easy to create a sweeping narrative of why one force is responsible for every economic woe ever from one thing, but it's never accurate at all, because the various economic crashes in this country have been caused by a very diverse cast if causes, and attempting to fit them into one narrative sacrifices actual accuracy.

[Sprin]

Somalia

I haven't heard that before!

[Willfor]

Meanwhile, on some radio channel elsewhere, a man goes on about how the government has caused every recession. I'm sure you would object to this, yes?

It is exceedingly easy to create a sweeping narrative of why one force is responsible for every economic woe ever from one thing, but it's never accurate at all, because the various economic crashes in this country have been caused by a very diverse cast if causes, and attempting to fit them into one narrative sacrifices actual accuracy.

How did the government cause it though? I've actually never heard this argument, this will be fun.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

-snip-

The funny part is that this is literally Trump's argument about business regulation, that all the quasi-legal malfeasance he and others got up to may have been wrong, but it was also inevitable because it was legal.

Not saying that as an argument or anything, it really is just funny. 

[Orange Wizard]

Laissze fair should help you guys a ton

How?

Your telling me you know a way to increase production increase wealth and quality of life, you should be able to outproduce the world! I encourage you to do so even. Hell might even join you myself if I see results

GDP isn't the only measure of a nation's success

How did the government cause it though? I've actually never heard this argument, this will be fun.

By not properly regulating credit/derivatives trading

[Sprin]

Well I explained it in the second quote of me
And yes GDP is a very decent line of success

I tend to like things being produced to make life easier
Like video games and microwave buritoes
What is it successful to still be on 1700s lifestyle?

[Orange Wizard]

Increases production and wealth, yeah? Where does all that wealth go?

Hint: Not to you

[Powder Miner]

For 2008? Oh, there's an EASY narrative for that one. I'm surprised you haven't heard it before. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, government decides, understandably, that people ought to be housed and puts heavy pressure on the housing market to get people housed, creating a biiiig oooool' bubble of housing purchasing with government funding at its back. But it's not getting paid off. People are getting hiusing loans and other things and they're not being paid off because they can't be paid off, which isn't helped by the government's frantic spending elsewhere creating more and more and more debt for the average consumer. The market is built on an unstable foundation, is growing perilously fast, and is taking the general economy with it, then you tie in loans and the general debt and so much more of the economy is involved... POP. Recession.

I'm not arguing for the truth of this one way or the other because it's a bit too late fir me to get my facts and logic and formulate a proper thesis, but I just want to showcase how EASY it is to make a narrative. You can even have cherrypicked facts alongside it. There really was a severe housing bubble, but its specific place in the issue is what is often debated.

Wikipedia literally has a section on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession#Narratives