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[Shadowlord]

I'm American and I don't know what "Unit 731" is. was. didn't. I googled* it just before typing this.

* using googled as a verb when I'm using bing

[mainiac]

Folks forget, in the USA, only property owners could vote.
[...]
it began with near-aristocratic elements, despite the pandering.

And Folks often forget that these property requirements were often very low, maybe 20 or 50 bucks.  They were a relic of English common law where parliaments were gatherings of taxpayers who existed for the purpose of approving taxes.  The plutocratic elements of the system came in from a lot of other places, mostly places that just bypassed democracy entirely like state appointments of senators.

Well, Guatemala 1954, Iran 1953, Chile 1973. None of those situations was even violent until the US decided to screw things up, and that's only a very short list off the top of my head.

Chile in 1973 did not possess a "functioning government".  Iran in 1953 was not a "decent liberal place".  I will grant you that Guatemala is actually a really good example of straight up corporate backed imperialism I was overlooking.

While it might seem like nitpicking to point out the failings of these governments, it's a pretty significant distortion.  These are complicated situations and you shouldn't reduce them in this fashion by ignoring troublesome facts.  Those troublesome facts are very revealing.

Also, mainiac, it sounds kinda naive to say "they never taught me that in history class!"

Or maybe it was me pointing out that you were inventing facts.

[Reelya]

For Chile, the reason the government wasn't functioning was mainly due to US screwing around:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him," prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate. Since the coup, however, few U.S. documents relating to Chile have been actually declassified- -until recently. Through Freedom of Information Act requests, and other avenues of declassification, the National Security Archive has been able to compile a collection of declassified records that shed light on events in Chile between 1970 and 1976.

These documents include:

    Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.
    CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government
    National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.
    State Department and NSC memoranda and cables after the coup, providing evidence of human rights atrocities under the new military regime led by General Pinochet.
    FBI documents on Operation Condor--the state-sponsored terrorism of the Chilean secret police, DINA. The documents, including summaries of prison letters written by DINA agent Michael Townley, provide evidence on the carbombing assassination of Orlando Letelier and Ronni Moffitt in Washington D.C., and the murder of Chilean General Carlos Prats and his wife in Buenos Aires, among other operations.

They literally started screwing with him even before he was elected, then went for all-out economic/political sabotage for the entirety of his term. So, yeah, it was a functioning democracy before you guys started messing with it.

[mainiac]

Yeah, I'm going to believe that inflation is a product of supply and demand, not Richard Nixon telling the CIA he wants inflation.

[PTTG??]

It's really amazing how the parody of yesteryear becomes the documentary of today.

[smjjames]

It's really amazing how the parody of yesteryear becomes the documentary of today.

Not seeing how that becomes the documentary of today.

[WealthyRadish]

Iran in 1953 was not a "decent liberal place".

It was certainly on the road to becoming one. Whatever you think of Mosaddegh and his reliance on populist support, you can't say he wasn't working to make Iran a secular, modern democracy with a possibility of economic viability independent of the British and Russia. Ousting him so obviously over the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and perceived leftist leanings was probably the single biggest mistake the US/UK have made in the middle east, depending on whether you include Britain giving Palestine to the Zionists.

[mainiac]

Is Iran currently a "decent liberal place"?  They currently have a president who was working to make Iran a secular, modern democracy with a possibility of economic viability independent of outside world powers.

[Reelya]

For Chile:

http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/for/chile-73.html

The largest single strike/lockout campaign was in Oct 1972. Originally it was called by a truck-owners' association in Punta Arenas, whose contract had been cancelled by a newly nationalized factory; the new management intended to build their own socialist truck fleet (Roxborough et al., p. 116). The campaign quickly expanded into a general strike/lockout throughout the country by other truckers, factory owners, wholesalers, retailers, professionals, and others. They demanded a reversal of much of the Unidad Popular program, but their leverage was not complete. Some economic activity continued, especially where Leftists seized locked-out facilities. A compromise settlement ended the plan for a socialized trucking industry, and brought 3 military officers into the cabinet, pledged to ensure orderly Congressional elections a few months later in March 1973.

It was a deliberate nationwide economic shut-down by the business elite that caused the hyper-inflation, not any specific economic policy of the government that caused this. Yeah shortages happened and that lead to massive price rises. But it was almost entirely due to moves orchestrated by the business elite. And these were people the CIA were definitely talking to, so it's entirely plausible that the CIA was involved with making this happen. After Allende left, any drop in inflation wasn't related to any amazing economic policies of Pinochet, but merely to the corporate elite re-opening all the factories they'd shut down.

[mainiac]

It was a deliberate nationwide economic shut-down by the business elite that caused the hyper-inflation, not any specific economic policy of the government that caused this. Yeah shortages happened and that lead to massive price rises. But it was almost entirely due to moves orchestrated by the business elite. And these were people the CIA were definitely talking to, so it's entirely plausible that the CIA was involved with making this happen. After Allende left, any drop in inflation wasn't related to any amazing economic policies of Pinochet, but merely to the corporate elite re-opening all the factories they'd shut down.

The insulting thing about this is this is you act like I am denying things that I'm not denying.  The CIA did some pretty fucked up shit.  I just asked you to consider the entire situation.  I asked you not to reduce it to a one sided story that acted like one organization created the entire situation.  You reply by acting like I need a lecture on what the CIA wanted.

Piss off.

[smjjames]

Sounds like it was the usual Cold War paranoia against socialism in Chile that was behind the US's actions. And Nixon himself was pathologically paranoid.

It doesn't excuse the sabotage, but what happened is what happened.

[Reelya]

Yeah, I'm going to believe that inflation is a product of supply and demand, not Richard Nixon telling the CIA he wants inflation.

Yes, the hyper-inflation in Allende's Chile is best explained by the fact that the country's pro-American business elite orchestrated a 100% economic shut-down. The Americans were already coming up with these ideas even before Allende was inaugurated.

[WealthyRadish]

Is Iran currently a "decent liberal place"?  They currently have a president who was working to make Iran a secular, modern democracy with a possibility of economic viability independent of outside world powers.

Can you elaborate on the meaning of this comparison? It doesn't seem relevant, and all I'm getting from it is that it would be hypocritical for me to support Rouhani being overthrown by the CIA. Or is the reasoning that ousting Mosaddegh was more acceptable, because we had no guarantee that he wouldn't become a despot?

[smjjames]

Reelya, I think what maniac is trying to tell you is that he wants actual data.

Also, is there any proof that it wasn't due to American interference? I'm just considering the other side of the equation (if that's the right metaphor).

[Reelya]

Though it deserves clarification that it seems to largely be the US Republicans who are buddy-buddy with torturers. Whereas the Democrats (e.g. Carter, Clinton) spoke out against the death squads, when there's a Republican in power they seem to look on fondly, pat their heads and say "That's my boy..."

Also, is there any proof that it wasn't due to American interference? I'm just considering the other side of the equation (if that's the right metaphor).

Well, anything is literally possible. But we have declassified US national security documents which state they were in contact with the various stakeholders before the inauguration, and proposing that those same sorts of measures to destabilize the economy should be conducted. When those same stakeholders then implement actions which have the exact same effect as the ones in the US documents, that might just be a pure coincidence. As for economic disruption, in those third-world economies they tend to have a small number pf plutocrats who own an excessive amount of the wealth (poor countries tend to have less equal wealth distribution), so a select few can much more easily derail the economy to make the government look bad.

We know a fair amount from declassified documents, but not all documents are available for inspection, and obviously some information would not have been written down during an operation which was basically a conspiracy to overthrow a political leader (it doesn't work if people know you are behind it).

Notably, on March 18th it was noted that Obama has order the declassification of documents regarding the US's role in another coup - the 1976 Argentinian coup. So presumably we're going to know a lot more about that, soon.