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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570319 times)

wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14355 on: March 13, 2016, 02:17:37 am »

It's OK Vector, I have lived a very difficult life myself you know.

For quite a while in my childhood, I was literally impoverished. (as in, food kitchen, and "scavenge for food" impoverished) I have been bullied and beaten up in school over it, and I am an alternative sexuality that gets sidelined by most activist groups. (Asexuals are often treated as something that doesnt exist.)  I have been teased and harrassed over this for basically my entire life.  I know all too well the "Great, here we go again." feeling.

Daily, I get harassed by a female resident at work with advanced dementia. She asks me repeatedly if we can go "do something", and other not so subtle hints. It isn't her fault, she has advanced dementia. It still gets old very fast.

I get hassled about not having a significant other almost daily, with kind and polite offers to be "Hooked up."  The message of "No, really--- NO." never sinks in.

And yes, I have had my ass patted at work.

I have other experiences I too am not really interested in sharing, but will nod that they are of unwanted sexual (as in, actual sex) nature.

I dont let these experiences destroy my joy in life.

Please, dont let your experiences destroy yours.
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Vector

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14356 on: March 13, 2016, 02:26:15 am »

yeah. need a lie-down. might be gone for a while.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Reelya

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14357 on: March 13, 2016, 03:11:24 am »

Just for the record, what I wrote was not in direct response to your experiences, Vector, sorry if it sounded insensitive in context.

What I wrote about "special treatment" was really about how other people bring up some lone statistic like it's meant to prove something, but by not taking the bigger picture we might miss opportunities to deal with deeper underlying issues. By not taking on board the stats for men, we might even be failing to address deeper causes that hurt women, too. Basically, I disagree that excluding inconvenient facts improves a discussion. Again, this had nothing to do with anything you said, Vector.

Overall (and the rest of this post is addressing the set of all posters who are not-Vector), for many types of gender-based violence the prevailing trend is that for each 2 male victims there are 3 female victims (this holds true for quite a few phenomena, such as domestic violence surveys and also surveys of workplace sexual harassment, here it's 16% for men vs 25% for women, and for child sexual abuse, it's also around 16% male to 25% female victims (page 5)). The commonality is a bigger problem than the difference.

An example of the gendered-approach failing to help is the Duluth Model of dealing with domestic violence, which is the most common form of intervention program in the USA. This treats all men as perps, all women as victims and believes that all violence stems from a single factor: patriarchy. The Duluth Model thus single-mindedly tries to "de-program" the men from their patriarchal views, and Duluth Model proponents are very hostile to alternative approaches such as "anger management" or approaches that see drug and alcohol abuse as major factors in domestic abuse. Not because those alternatives don't help, however. They do. But they don't stroke the same ideological itch.

According to controlled studies, the Duluth Model makes absolutely zero difference to the recurrence of domestic violence when you compare to a control group who received no treatment. And even the original creators of the program now say it's a load of shit, yet it's still pushed as the "only" way to deal with domestic violence, because it appeals to a hardline ideology, results be damned! And clearly, this model of "treatment" isn't just hurting men by ignoring abuse against them, the case could be made that it's hurting women even more than men, by stifling discussion of alternative viewpoints and solutions.

Another example of how ignoring male-victims-of-women hurts women, is in child abuse. Many people will scoff at the idea that we should seriously look at female pedophiles as a "real" issue, since they are so rare. And anyway, girls have it worse, so forget about the boys. It's probably men's fault 99% of the time anyway. But the CDC estimated in 2011 that there are over 4 million girls/women in the USA that were sexually abused by a female perpetrator in childhood, that's 4 million abused girls we're turning a blind eye to if we stick to the "patriarchy" line. And female pedophiles go for boys about 4x as often as they go for girls, so the total number of victims of female pedophilia might be around 20 million people just in the USA. That's not so "rare". Additionally, being sexually abused in childhood by a woman is the single biggest risk factor for becoming a future male rapist. So, turning a blind eye to female perps is hurting other women down the track.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 07:16:07 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14358 on: March 13, 2016, 04:02:10 am »

Yes. It does.

That does not change the SJW position that "Men are the cause of the problem, and women are victims! VICTIMS! Dont you understand!?".  You can point out the causal factors, the real effects of the statistics they cherry pick, and all manner of other things. I doubt it will ever help.

Things get more complicated when the channel of communication gets poisoned by chauvanists (of any sort), who want to dilute the message-- The SJWs will lump you in with them, because you don't share their message.

The reality that this is a human problem, caused by humans, and not just one kind of human in particular, but all humans, is too inconvenient. Scapegoats are such delightfully cozy things. People dont want to let them go-- and the world suffers for it.
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Tiruin

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14359 on: March 13, 2016, 04:16:06 am »

Yes. It does.

That does not change the SJW position that "Men are the cause of the problem, and women are victims! VICTIMS! Dont you understand!?".  You can point out the causal factors, the real effects of the statistics they cherry pick, and all manner of other things. I doubt it will ever help.

Things get more complicated when the channel of communication gets poisoned by chauvanists (of any sort), who want to dilute the message-- The SJWs will lump you in with them, because you don't share their message.

The reality that this is a human problem, caused by humans, and not just one kind of human in particular, but all humans, is too inconvenient. Scapegoats are such delightfully cozy things. People dont want to let them go-- and the world suffers for it.
The real problem isn't being addressed in my skimming of this :/ You got it--it's the attitude of interaction. Not men, not women: The attitude. The perception. Something difficult to pinpoint within statistics unless one diverges from numbers and addresses the qualitative side.

Also posting in here because we're hearing a lot of Trump in the Philippines. ._.
Err, we're all wondering how he's even 'Making America Great {again?}' if his moves are for division and stuff.
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Reelya

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14360 on: March 13, 2016, 04:57:57 am »

Well, reading a little into Trump statements, the real problem is that the Great-Americans have become big wusses and won't beat up the No-So-Great-Americans. By beating up and/or deporting the less-great Americans, America becomes relatively more great again.

wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14361 on: March 13, 2016, 05:28:41 am »

I take it with a huge assed grain of salt, and interpret it this way. (warning, deadly levels of cynicism.)

What makes "America Great", is "being in charge of everyone else."  Since the US's position has been deteriorating lately, in the face of global competition for labor and previously held intellectual monopolies are being eroded, some form of forcing the issue internationally is "required", or else America will continue to become less and less relevant.

As such, I see Trump being a big supporter of increased tariffs, pulling shenanigans with WIPO, increasing pressure for intellectual properties to stay in the US a-la the EAR restrictions on encryption tech that were in place in the 90s, etc.

That's on the economic side.

On the sociological side, I see Trump being a "traditional values" leaning conservative. Not a nuttjob like so many are about it-- He's shown some moderate views there-- but he wont bow and scrape to PC partyline politics. If he can show that demographic X is causing problem Y, he will be more than happy to scapegoat demographic X, in the vain hopes that doing so will discourage problem Y. (He doesnt understand group dynamics very well if he actually thinks this is a good thing.) You can see this with his "Mexican illegals are rapists, thieves, and murderers." rhetoric.

I suspect that in his mind "Great" is defined by the state we had just after the second world war, in the 1950s reconstruction era. Nevermind the rife social problems the US had with inequality, and other nasty ailments at that time. The idea of the family being able to go out on a roadtrip basically anytime they want, because of inexpensive automobiles, inexpensive gas, and high (comparable to global standards) wages, along with all the trimmings normally expected to be achievable by your typical white middle income household for that era.

Nevermind that this is simply not attainable by the numbers. The US is involved with global trade agreements that enable products to be made overseas, which drives down local labor need, which in turn drives down wages--- In addition to the fact that the average american home consumes WAAAAAAAAY more energy than it did then, AND the fact that there are simply way more americans in total now than there were then.

By all factors, his plan is not workable.

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mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14362 on: March 13, 2016, 06:38:43 am »

That does not change the SJW position

When your response to a complaint is to complain that other, vaguely people make a different complaint, you are strawmanning.

We should make the use of the phrases social justice warrior and politically correct punishable by death.
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Catmeat

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14363 on: March 13, 2016, 07:04:56 am »

(removed)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:41:17 am by Toady One »
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Tiruin

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14364 on: March 13, 2016, 07:22:50 am »

(response to removed removed)

[...]
Thanks for that opinion! :D Kinda parallels what we're hearing here in some ways but ._.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:41:46 am by Toady One »
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14365 on: March 13, 2016, 07:31:19 am »

That does not change the SJW position

When your response to a complaint is to complain that other, vaguely people make a different complaint, you are strawmanning.

We should make the use of the phrases social justice warrior and politically correct punishable by death.

There's a reason why those terms have pejorative connotations. I will leave it at that. Making the word "naughty", does not solve the problem underneath.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14366 on: March 13, 2016, 07:47:24 am »

The fact that "nerd" has a negative connotation is evidence of real problems in the gaming community. We must all strive to be cooler.
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sprinkled chariot

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14367 on: March 13, 2016, 07:51:52 am »

For some unreasonable reason part of me is amazed by idea of Trump becoming president.
Despite all my lack of love for traditionalists and republicans.
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14368 on: March 13, 2016, 07:55:10 am »

Yes, the connotations with "Nerd" were for a social introvert with poor social skills, and a singular fixating interest.  Such people have real problems.  Making the word into a naughty one does not make that go away. It is not an antonym of "cool."  "Flatterer" would be a better choice. It too has negative connotations.

What I am getting at, is, to quote the bard-- "A rose by any other name, would smell as sweet."

EG, it does not matter what the word is, if the thing it represents has negative things going for it, it will become a pejorative.

SJW and PC are both terms with negative connotations, because they have negative things going for them. Making the words naughty does not solve this problem.
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Tiruin

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14369 on: March 13, 2016, 07:58:25 am »

It's noted that words are tools for conveying meaning--if a certain word has 'negative connotations', those negative connotations influence the meaning in the mind of the receiver if they also see this word with those connotations.

Big point in language--it's the conceptual knowledge one has of words used that also makes it important. It's a good point that connotative meaning can be changed though.
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