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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570218 times)

wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14340 on: March 13, 2016, 01:33:57 am »

Yes, we're not allowed to talk about women unless we're also talking about men.

Unless we're talking about men, and then it's perfectly acceptable to keep talking about men forever.

That's not the point. Saying "women should get special protection because women face <problem X>" carries an implicit message that men don't face the same problem, thus don't deserve the same protections.

EXACTLY.

Forgive me for NOT buying into the whole "women are an inferior gender that need special help" line. The issue of sexual misconduct at work is a HUMAN issue. It needs to be dealt with in that fashion.
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Descan

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14341 on: March 13, 2016, 01:34:22 am »

Yes, we're not allowed to talk about women unless we're also talking about men.

Unless we're talking about men, and then it's perfectly acceptable to keep talking about men forever.
That is a perfectly acceptable point to address, in certain situations. Such as gender representation, for one. But in a situation where it literally happens to both genders at near-parity levels, then this is an insane position to take.

Yes, you're right, women getting protections completely prevents activists for men from getting the same protections as women are seeking.
Well, yes? It does? When people take issue with men even bringing up the topic in situations where it's applicable? "We have now fixed the issue with women being harassed!" "Hooray! Now what about the men being harassed?" "What ABOUT them?"

Vs. "We have now fixed the issue with people being harassed!"

It's the same issue with the same causes, power dynamics and exploitation of perceived inferiority.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:36:46 am by Descan »
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Rolan7

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14342 on: March 13, 2016, 01:37:22 am »

Yes I was a victim of "murder and sexual advances".
Do you know how the word 'and' works? Because I promise you were not murdered.
I do, and that was my point.  The makers of the survey combined "unwanted advances" with "unwanted touching" and hoped people wouldn't notice.
Or is "unwanted touching" not a subset of "unwanted advances"?  Why did they carefully list the general offense, then one very specific offense?  Because they were conflating, dishonestly adding, is my guess.
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Willfor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14343 on: March 13, 2016, 01:39:54 am »

Yes, we're not allowed to talk about women unless we're also talking about men.

Unless we're talking about men, and then it's perfectly acceptable to keep talking about men forever.
That is a perfectly acceptable point to address, in certain situations. Such as gender representation, for one. But in a situation where it literally happens to both genders at near-parity levels, then this is an insane position to take.

Yes, you're right, women getting protections completely prevents activists for men from getting the same protections as women are seeking.
Well, yes? It does? When people take issue with men even bringing up the topic in situations where it's applicable? "We have now fixed the issue with women being harassed!" "Hooray! Now what about the men being harassed?" "What ABOUT them?"

Vs. "We have now fixed the issue with people being harassed!"

It's the same issue with the same causes, power dynamics and exploitation of perceived inferiority.
Sorry, I was so fucking tired of every single conversation on this board that involves women suddenly being invaded by "what about the men". Ignore me.
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Descan

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14344 on: March 13, 2016, 01:40:55 am »

I dunno, Rolan. I can see them being split. "Unwanted touching" being physical, "unwanted advances" being verbal.

That's understandable, Willfor, and I would be completely behind you 100% in a situation where it actually was "guys butting in to say '#notallmen!'" or if it were a similar situation as "'But what about child custody rates in divorces?' in a conversation about FGM or gender-discrimination in hiring."
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:42:50 am by Descan »
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14345 on: March 13, 2016, 01:43:21 am »

Unwanted advances can also be body language that is confrontational and fear inducing.

Such as say, closing in on somebody near the water cooler and invading their personal space with unwanted requests to go on a nice private date.

It is equally creepy, no matter who does it. There is no actual touching, but physical proximity and body language of desire and intent are still very present.

It doesnt matter if it is the super creepy guy, or the super creepy old cougar who does it. It is still wrong, and fear inducing.
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Willfor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14346 on: March 13, 2016, 01:45:21 am »

I dunno, Rolan. I can see them being split. "Unwanted touching" being physical, "unwanted advances" being verbal.

That's understandable, Willfor, and I would be completely behind you 100% in a situation where it actually was "guys butting in to say '#notallmen!'" or if it were a similar situation as "'But what about child custody rates in divorces?' in a conversation about FGM or gender-discrimination in hiring."

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3531355 Posts in 151716 Topics by 46650 Members.

And as far as I can tell, 0 instances of what I wanted ever happening. So I am like, not even sorry I blew up. Please, somebody, either point me to the exception, or we need to actually make this happen.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
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Descan

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14347 on: March 13, 2016, 01:45:34 am »

It doesnt matter if it is the super creepy guy, or the super creepy old cougar who does it. It is still wrong, and fear inducing.
Odd choice of words. What if it were a young college co-ed, all blonde and blue-eyed, who just can't take no for an answer? :V Don't bother answering, fairly certain you'll say "Yeah that's still an issue!" I just find it odd that you generalized the male person, but the female person was chosen to be a very specific subset of women.
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14348 on: March 13, 2016, 01:46:40 am »

If she's creepily interested and wont take no for an answer? Just as creepy. She could be Jessica Alba for all I care, of she wont accept no as an answer, she's being abusive.

(The mental image I have of the creepy guy is of a middle aged white man, with slightly balding hair, and a widening waistline-- hence the "old cougar" interjection. The svelte college boy and hot girl are equally capable of standing in on the situation. Relative hotness does not figure.)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:48:21 am by wierd »
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14349 on: March 13, 2016, 01:52:24 am »

I've been awakened from my new-found adventures in Estonian real estate speculation to be informed that this thread seems to be derailing a bit. While I don't particularly care much about derails, I'd rather not have Toad on our asses, so everyone, please, maintain your chillness.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14350 on: March 13, 2016, 01:56:33 am »

I have seriously been considering pitcairn island.

Tropical, remote, politically undesirable, population of under 50...

What's not to like?
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14352 on: March 13, 2016, 02:02:30 am »

I've been awakened from my new-found adventures in Estonian real estate speculation to be informed that this thread seems to be derailing a bit. While I don't particularly care much about derails, I'd rather not have Toad on our asses, so everyone, please, maintain your chillness.

Planning a move in case Trump wins, are we?

More like, if you can buy a seaside cabin with no major repairs needed and all the amenities of modern life and a sauna for 25,000 euros in an undiscovered gem of a country...why wouldn't you?
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Vector

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14353 on: March 13, 2016, 02:06:03 am »

The Tough Guy Vector Biography of Why I Don't Like Having This Conversation


So far, I've had three stalkers, one person (female) who tried (ineffectively) to kill me, one person who tried to strangle me, been raped by a boyfriend, and endured a shitton of sexual and street harassment from men and women (mostly men, tho!). And I had an ex-girlfriend who hit me a lot and was instrumental in chipping one of my teeth. Physically threatened by one of my boyfriends.

I've sat around in classroom environments with men who would sit around loudly chaining rape jokes for literally hours. Get hit on by sleazy classmates. Staring at me while making "here's the cock going in and out" gestures. Get asked on the street if I'm for sale. Backed into corners by graduate students and professors, had my flat tits stared at, ETC.

This sort of thing doesn't surprise me anymore. At this point, when I feel existentially threatened, the first thing I think is: "Okay, get ready. Here we go again."

The professor who stared at me and kept zipping and unzipping his fly over his partial erection as a 65-year-old when I was 19 and the only lady-type in the room was gross and surprising.


So no, I haven't specifically been fondled by a coworker, and I know that my experiences are statistically very unlikely, but that didn't make them happen any less. I would like very much not to be fondled by any coworkers. I've been unwillingly fondled in the tits and had various other bodily parts stroked by friends and strangers (while I said STOP, quit it NOW), and I've had dudes who I didn't know reach out and touch me in other places, but no, no coworkers. I suspect that it helps that I work in education and research. I don't count "having my ass photographed by my teenaged students" as sexual harassment, although obviously stuff like that's happened too.


I am not crippled by paralyzing anxiety and fear, er, as much as I used to be. Sometimes I do have bad days and struggle with going outside. Clearly I'm hypervigilant at this point. I've talked about PTSD a lot here because, well, it's a large part of my life.

And the other thing you should know about me is that when shit goes down, I go put myself in it, because I don't want what's happened to me to happen to anyone else. I've broken up fights in which there was a reasonable possibility of being stabbed before. My friends know that if they have a problem with alcohol or having been violated or with somebody hitting them, they can come to me. Because I'm a mess day-to-day, but I know how to deal with Situations.

So no, I'm not just sitting around paralyzed by fear, weeping because the world is just too scary. Usually.


I'm not even getting into the personal histories and experiences of my friends, who have seen some shit.


I've also lived in rough neighborhoods with gang members fighting in the back yard and gangrapes happening down the street, and I was physically tortured and starved by my mother. I drop to the ground whenever I hear a car backfire. I have a part of my mind that constantly catalogues food sources (OOH LOOK AT THAT, ORANGE PEEL NEAR THE BUS STOP). I had a few years where I couldn't make myself stop eating rotten shit and was kind of a food kleptomaniac to boot. Couldn't wash my face. Could barely take showers. For a long time, I could barely force myself to drink water (I still don't drink it if she's offering). Got big bald patches and a shitty immune system; lots of years when I had various vitamin deficiencies. I grew something like 4-5 inches after I left my parents' house.

My resting heart rate has been 100 for a while. I have to inform people before I have surgery that when I wake up, I'm going to be extremely upset; last time they gave me four shots of morphine before I could calm myself down enough to tell them that no that's not the problem. I almost ended up on heart medication at age 25.


And yeah, they're irrational fears, but dude, I got them the hard way. Not media messages.


I'm doing my diligence and I've been in therapy since I could afford it, as of mid-january 2014. However, I can't just suddenly stop being this person because "it's not okay." "Stop existing, Vector!" Like... no? "Go back to how you used to be!"

yeah, so the last time I didn't have this kind of problem I was 3, and I don't think anyone wants to haul me around while I drool on them.


I never said "women should get special protection because women have problem X." I'm saying that it's my understanding that women experience problem X disproportionately, often in more severity than men do, and what I would like people to do about it is listen to what I'm saying and stop other people if they see 'em being shitty, and stop acting like all this stuff is just a product of the feminine imagination. That's it. I'm not talking statistics because honestly, I don't understand statistics. But I do understand that virtually every person I've heard gloating over a sexual assault was male, and virtually every person I've seen crying over one was female. It happens the other way sometimes. But it's really not just "the media." Shit actually happens.

Obviously, I know that women can be awful. I've been sexually harassed by women, hit by them, and so on and so forth. But right now I'm talking about something else.


(And also, sometimes people lie on the internet. But I'm actually not lying.)


I hope that it's clear that I'm being chill about this. Talking about it is honestly stressing me out a lot just because I can't think about all of this without getting really tense. I'm not mad, but if I sound stressed, it's just because... I'm stressed. But like, maybe not with the "you're irrational" bit. That hurts my feelings.

Folks usually assume that I'm exaggerating. I feel really isolated, and I'm tired of being disbelieved.
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wierd

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #14354 on: March 13, 2016, 02:07:25 am »

The sexual assault trials of 2004.

Lovely...  Guess human ugliness is everywhere, huh?

The cynic in me says that this kind of thing is epidemic in all positions of power (see for instance, the UK scandal concerning institutionalized child sex slavery), but I dunno some times.
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